|
Russia cuts gas supply to Ukraine, Europe at risk (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| InterMilan31 |
| Lepanto sort this out call your boy Putin |
|
|
| Purple |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3xx3r7
That's the best counter-argument ever, oh wise one. |
LOL |
|
|
| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Ukraine 'stealing Europe's gas'
Ukraine gets 30% of its gas from Russia
Russia has accused Ukraine of stealing $25m of gas exports destined for Europe after it cut off supplies to the country on Sunday.
Countries as far west as France say supplies from a pipeline running via Ukraine have fallen by up to 40%.
Ukraine denied taking the gas, but said it would siphon off a share if temperatures fell much below freezing.
The row erupted after Russia raised the price of 1,000 cubic metres of gas from $50 to $230 and Ukraine refused to pay.
Russia's gas monopoly Gazprom is still charging the lower price to some former Soviet countries, though the average price in the EU is $240 (£140).
Moldovan President Vladimir Voronin said his country had also been cut off, after refusing to pay $160 per 1,000 cubic metres, according to the Itar-Tass news agency.
Kiev says it is being punished for its attempts to become more independent from Moscow and develop stronger ties with the West.
In a statement on Sunday night, it accused Russia of resorting to "blackmail" in order to undermine the country's economy.
German warning
Both the European Union and the United States have expressed concern about the row.
GAS CUT IMPACT
Ukraine - loses 100% of Russian imports
Hungary - Russian imports down 40%
Poland - supply down 14% on Sunday. Seeking to increase supplies from alternative pipe
Austria, Slovakia, Romania - supplies down by a third
Germany - no problems yet, but later cuts to big firms "not ruled out"
France - heavy user of Russian gas, but no problems likely yet
Q&A: Ukraine gas row
Media square up
Germany, which depends on Russia for 30% of its supplies, on Monday called on Moscow to "act responsibly".
Alexander Medvedev, deputy head of Gazprom, said Ukraine had stolen 100 million cubic metres of gas on 1 January.
"If the theft continues at this pace, the volume and cost of the stolen goods will rise quite considerably," he said.
Ukraine's Fuel and Energy Minister Ivan Plachkov said there had been no "unauthorised diversion" of gas.
But he said Ukraine had the right under existing contracts to take a share of gas exported via the Ukrainian pipeline - the main route for Russian exports - and would do so if the temperature fell below -3C.
He also said that Ukraine was currently relying on gas from Turkmenistan and its own reserves.
But Gazprom, which controls the pipeline linking Turkmenistan and Ukraine, said no Turkmen gas was entering the country.
"Today the Ukrainian gas transporting system is receiving nothing but Russian gas," Mr Medvedev told journalists in Moscow.
Supplies falling
Gazprom supplies about 25% of Western Europe's needs.
Central and eastern Europe's gas pipeline network
Enlarge Map
France, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia have reported a sharp fall in supplies.
The shortage was being passed on, as affected countries said they would in turn be pumping less gas to customers further down the line, like Serbia and Bosnia.
Experts say Germany could be affected soon.
Austrian, Romanian and Slovak authorities said supplies from Russia were down by about one third, while Hungarian gas firm MOL said its supplies were down by 40%.
France was 25-30% down and Italy 24%, officials said.
Ukraine says the loss of Russian supplies will not hit ordinary Ukrainian consumers, but has warned that industry could be affected.
The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry says Russia is in breach of contract by cutting off the gas and has called for a resumption of talks in the presence of international experts.
It says Ukraine is ready to agree to an increase in gas prices, if this is phased in gradually.
Relations between Russia and Ukraine have been tense since President Viktor Yushchenko came to power last year on a promise to strengthen relations with the EU and Nato, and steer the country out of Russia's sphere of influence.
|
|
|
|
| Purple |
I only get 2 pages of this article.
Does anyone else get 3 pages of this article like Lepanto? |
|
|
| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3xx3r7
I meet both criteria and he is right. The government of my home country got used to all the benefits they get from Russia. You are the one who is not experienced in Ukrainian politics. If you were you would know that there is an incredible hatred toward Russians throughout Ukraine. When Yuschenko came to power with his pro-western anti-Russian platform, this hatred was boosted even more. With this kind of douchetitude from Ukraine, Yuschenko and Co. should be grateful that Russia sells them gas period.
Also, backing your argument with what Ukrainian officials say definitely does not make it more credible. Even if you tried to use that statement as proof of you argument, Belarus does not hate upon Russia. As they say, you don't cut the hand that feeds you. |
And I've meet both criteria seeing as how my uncle owns gas stations in the Ukraine and eastern Poland.
You've yet to address the fact that other ex-USSR countries still pay "5 times less" ;)
I've rather listen to Yuschenko speak, even if it is often babble, rather than a clown like Putin.
Furthermore, I've yet to even realize what you are trying to say other than the fact that "you can't trust those Pro-Westerners but you can trust people who rig/help rig and poison people who oppose them". What a great leap for a region who's trying to reform towards a free government.
Also, if you indeed have any insight into the politics of the region you'd know that Yuschenko ripped apart heaps of laws and policies that Kuchma had made because they are all corrupt and nonsensical. And if you're even going to make a bid to somehow convince me that they weren't or that any of the former USSR countries aren't corrupt and their leaders are honest then you might as well jump off a bridge and believe someone who says you're able to fly.
Ukranians have every reason to hate Russia ESPECIALLY in the post-Orange Revolution times. It's crummy when people actually believe Yanukovich and his tyranny. |
|
|
| 3xx3r7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
And I've meet both criteria seeing as how my uncle owns gas stations in the Ukraine and eastern Poland.
|
Were you born and have lived in Ukraine? It's easy to warm your butt elsewhere and talk about problems in other countries.
| quote: |
You've yet to address the fact that other ex-USSR countries still pay "5 times less" ;)
|
What other countries? Even IF it is true, they don't bitch and point fingers at Russia nowhere near as Ukraine does.
| quote: |
I've rather listen to Yuschenko speak, even if it is often babble, rather than a clown like Putin.
|
Sound like a personal preference. I don't like either, but Yuschenko's reports are definitely NOT more credible. Like one of the TA's posted you wouldn't say anything if Russia gets a screwjob, since you hate it so much, as displayed in your immature posts in "Russian Alliance" thread in COR.
| quote: |
Furthermore, I've yet to even realize what you are trying to say other than the fact that "you can't trust those Pro-Westerners but you can trust people who rig/help rig and poison people who oppose them". What a great leap for a region who's trying to reform towards a free government.
|
I'm not gonna even bother with this one. Lemme put it in simple formula:
Subsidized gas + (Hatred toward Russians + Ukraine's independence + no more USSR) -> market gas prices as everyone else
| quote: |
Also, if you indeed have any insight into the politics of the region you'd know that Yuschenko ripped apart heaps of laws and policies that Kuchma had made because they are all corrupt and nonsensical.
|
Ummm...lol.
And new laws that Yuschenko is trying to implement are less corrupt and for he good will of the people? Don't tell me you're that naive (that is if you have insight on Ukrainian politics and politiians especially).
| quote: |
And if you're even going to make a bid to somehow convince me that they weren't or that any of the former USSR countries aren't corrupt and their leaders are honest then you might as well jump off a bridge and believe someone who says you're able to fly.
|
Did I imply that anywhere? You seem to miss one point after another. I was talking about Ukraine's douchetitude; therefore, their accounts on the situation would be a tad biased, wouldn't you think?
| quote: |
Ukranians have every reason to hate Russia ESPECIALLY in the post-Orange Revolution times.
|
Yep and while they're at it, they can call up boys from UNA-UNSO to beat up every Russian they see. When that starts happening, you are not going to say a word. I can bet 100 bucks on that.
| quote: |
It's crummy when people actually believe Yanukovich and his tyranny. |
Yanukovich's tyranny? You take it way out of proportions. I find Yuschenko as credible and as trustworthy as Yanukovich or as any other politician in Ukraine. It shows again that you don't know the history of politics in that region. |
|
|
| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3xx3r7
Were you born and have lived in Ukraine? It's easy to warm your butt elsewhere and talk about problems in other countries.
What other countries? Even IF it is true, they don't bitch and point fingers at Russia nowhere near as Ukraine does.
Sound like a personal preference. I don't like either, but Yuschenko's reports are definitely NOT more credible. Like one of the TA's posted you wouldn't say anything if Russia gets a screwjob, since you hate it so much, as displayed in your immature posts in "Russian Alliance" thread in COR.
I'm not gonna even bother with this one. Lemme put it in simple formula:
Subsidized gas + (Hatred toward Russians + Ukraine's independence + no more USSR) -> market gas prices as everyone else
Ummm...lol.
And new laws that Yuschenko is trying to implement are less corrupt and for he good will of the people? Don't tell me you're that naive (that is if you have insight on Ukrainian politics and politiians especially).
Yep and while they're at it, they can call up boys from UNA-UNSO to beat up every Russian they see. When that starts happening, you are not going to say a word. I can bet 100 bucks on that.
Yanukovich's tyranny? You take it way out of proportions. I find Yuschenko as credible and as trustworthy as Yanukovich or as any other politician in Ukraine. It shows again that you don't know the history of politics in that region. |
You'd lose the hundred bucks. I was also born in Russia, cur. Umm...lol Yeah that's why now it's harder to cross and run through the border thanks to Yuschenko. How again is he against the people and Yanukovich, WHO'S SAT IN JAIL FOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY A PEOPLE'S LEADER AGAIN?:haha:.
Wah Wah Wah Russian Alliance:rolleyes: I'm not even going to bother with this again.
Clearly you haven't read the article since it SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT BELARUS PAYS THE OLD, 1/5 PRICE ALONG WITH OTHER EX-USSR, RUSSIAN ASS LICKING MONKEYS. But ofcourse this article came from a Ukranian newspaper, right ;)?
Furthermore, the tyranny is of Kuchma and his buddy Putin not of Yanukovich, who was "installed" as a dictato...i mean president after a rigged election backed by Russia.
And, lastly, do you even take in the fact that you've proved my point when you've said that "Ukranians hate Russians and it's Russia getting back at Ukraine for electing a Pro-Western President (thank God)"?
haha
THIS JUST IN...so much for Russia have any credibility left whatsoever....
| quote: | By Dmitry Zhdannikov
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia and Ukraine reached a face-saving deal on Wednesday in a bitter gas dispute which hit supplies to Europe and cast doubt on Moscow's reliability as a safe supply source.
The European Union welcomed the five-year pact but still held talks to discuss energy security after the sudden reduction over the New Year of Russian deliveries, which cover a quarter of the continent's needs.
The accord calms tensions between the ex-Soviet neighbors which peaked on January 1 when Russia's state gas monopoly Gazprom
cut deliveries to Ukraine to press its demand for a fourfold hike in export prices.
European consumers suffered a sharp, two-day drop in deliveries of Siberian gas pumped westward across Ukraine, before full pipeline pressure was restored.
"We have reached a final agreement," Gazprom Chief Executive Alexei Miller told reporters after crisis talks in Moscow with Ukrainian officials.
"This agreement will ensure stable supplies to Europe."
Details were sketchy, but Miller said the deal was effective from January 1 and based on a price of $230 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. That is up from the $50 Ukraine had paid under an existing cut-price deal.
But, after mixing in extra supplies from the Central Asian states of Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, Kiev will pay an average gas import price of $95 per 1,000 cubic meters, both sides said.
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yuri Yekhanurov welcomed the deal but said his country would have to work to reduce its dependency on Russian gas.
"It was a serious lesson for us," he said in Kiev. |
So what has Russia gained again? Clearly the price they asked for wasn't realistic. Clearly they are abusing their position as the leader of G8 this time. Clearly they will never, in the near future, be considered a reliable energy source.
Russia with it's unreasonable and illogical attitude messes things up for everyone once again. |
|
|
| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT BELARUS PAYS THE OLD, 1/5 PRICE ALONG WITH OTHER EX-USSR, RUSSIAN ASS LICKING MONKEYS. |
Ehm, give examples of more counties that pays only 1/5 of the markets price :conf: |
|
|
| Aquadyne |
This is all pointless.
Here's the crux of the question: Why do you act like Ukraine is *ENTITLED* to natural gas at almost five times below the market prices?
The fact that Belarus is paying five times below isn't an answer as to why Ukraine should pay five times less. By your logic, just about every former Soviet republic should then be entitled to gas that is five times as cheap as the market price.
| quote: | | So what has Russia gained again? Clearly the price they asked for wasn't realistic. Clearly they are abusing their position as the leader of G8 this time. Clearly they will never, in the near future, be considered a reliable energy source. |
Why isn't the price realistic? Because Ukraine can't pay? If Ukraine can't pay what the market will bear - perhaps they need to consider alternate source of heating.
Also, how is Moscow abusing their position as the G-8 leader. I don't think you understand what the duties and responsibilities of a G-8 leader entail... This is a simple matter of Moscow finally trying to recoup the money that it has been losing for years and years while selling subsidized gas to Ukraine.
As for not being considered a reliable energy... let us take a walk down memory lane to 1970s and revisit the OPEC boycott. Yeah that's right. When you're the largest exporter of gas and second largest exporter of crude in the world - you can dictate some of the rules. And some of the rules are very simple: actually it is the same rules that your american utility companies employ: if you can't pay the bills, the gas stays off.
/Was born in USSR
//Loves Yuschenko :)
///There is no free lunch |
|
|
| Shakka |
If there's one person I don't trust, it's Vladimir Putin. And if Russia wants to charge a market price for their product, then they should be allowed to do so. However, it's pretty obvious that Yuschenko is being punished for the Orange Revolution last year and is therefore being charged a much higher rate than everyone else.
| quote: | | Russia has been subsidizing former USSR satellite states with deeply discounted natural gas since the early 1990s. Gazprom, Russia's natural gas arm, has moved to increase the prices of nat gas sold to these countries for "economic" reasons. Ukraine, however, protested that it was being asked to pay considerably more than its former USSR member brethren for political reasons. Gazprom had raised the quoted price of nat gas to the Ukraine from about a $1.40/mmcf to $6.50/mcf. Whereas other former USSR member states are paying about $3.10/mcf and Belarus, the most subservient country to Russia, only $1.30/mcf |
Of course, I'm personally paying a lot more than the Ukraine for my gas, so they can all go to hell for all I care.:disbelief |
|
|
| Aquadyne |
| quote: | | I only get 2 pages of this article. |
You only need the opening paragraph to form an educated and valid opinion. Suck it, Ukraine. Suck it long and suck it hard. |
|
|
| Purple |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
You only need the opening paragraph to form an educated and valid opinion. Suck it, Ukraine. Suck it long and suck it hard. |
Agree, but Lepanto insists that I should read 'full 3 pages' of this article before posting in here, but its only 2 pages. :conf: |
|
|
|
|
