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****ing doctors!!! (pg. 4)
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| aL_mAc |
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
Gee if you take out the funny bits this thread really sums up what is happening to our healthcare system! U.S. Of A here we come!!:whip: |
well something has to change...
our economy cannot sustain it as it currently exists! the main problem lies in the the ageing population and the dwindling fertility rates! there is a massive balloon in the population age distribution and its about to hit the critical years for health care and hence spending in this area..
add to that the fact that older people are now living longer and that there are a greater range of therapies and drugs available which people want to have to facilitate this, well the money gotta come from somewhere dont it! some service will no doubt suffer!
once the baby boomers hit there 60's its all going to fall apart..
also if less people abused the system also (ie health care card holders getting free rides in ambulances for a sore throats cos its cheaper than a taxi to the dr etc) wed be alot better off. at least thered still be some money to spend on actual health care!
there is actually a massive catch 22 thing going on with bulk billing/treatment/hopsitals and OS doctors being imported but you think its bad here you should go out into rural victoria haha
i could talk about this for hours if i wanted but i dont..
al gets off his health care high horse |
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| quidgydog |
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here I am thinking this is the usual doctor bash-fest, but suddenly there are two intelligent, insightful posts on the one page.
I can hardly believe it. :eek:
Al and Aquila - You are my new best friends. :D At least a couple of people realise that doctors have very little they can do about the situation. |
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| DIDI |
| quote: | Originally posted by aL_mAc
well something has to change...
our economy cannot sustain it as it currently exists! the main problem lies in the the ageing population and the dwindling fertility rates! there is a massive balloon in the population age distribution and its about to hit the critical years for health care and hence spending in this area..
add to that the fact that older people are now living longer and that there are a greater range of therapies and drugs available which people want to have to facilitate this, well the money gotta come from somewhere dont it! some service will no doubt suffer!
once the baby boomers hit there 60's its all going to fall apart..
also if less people abused the system also (ie health care card holders getting free rides in ambulances for a sore throats cos its cheaper than a taxi to the dr etc) wed be alot better off. at least thered still be some money to spend on actual health care!
there is actually a massive catch 22 thing going on with bulk billing/treatment/hopsitals and OS doctors being imported but you think its bad here you should go out into rural victoria haha
i could talk about this for hours if i wanted but i dont..
al gets off his health care high horse |
You've got really great points here ! The one you haven't touched on is the massive subsidies that are going to the private health system. This is why I say we are heading the same way as the U. S.
Trance Nutter of course I read Helen's post. My point is that we have far more in common with the american system. I an also aware that there are countries that are far worse off than we are. Does that mean we should just accept everything as it is?[ I ask this in the nicest possible way.:) ] |
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| quidgydog |
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
You've got really great points here ! The one you haven't touched on is the massive subsidies that are going to the private health system. This is why I say we are heading the same way as the U. S.
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Ok, starting to get into the reaches of a typical left-wing/right-wing debate here. To say we have more in common with the US system than the UK system is not correct. The foundation of the Australian system is still the Medicare system which is similar to the UK NHS system in that the basis is a government funded healthcare system that the public does not have to pay for (and I will NOT get into an arguement about GP gap payments here). The Australian private healthcare system is similar to the US system where it is a more user-pays/insurance-pays system. This is a simplistic view and every statement I have made so far is not 100% correct, simply because neither the UK nor US systems can be considered to be similar to ours.
The arguement about the Private Health subsidy has no simple answer. People throw figures around the place about what it 'costs', but the fact is that it has taken significant load off the public health system. When it was introduced private health membership was at an all-time low and its implementation brought a lot of people into private health membership. Despite this, the membership of private health funds is tapering off again. The removal of the 30% subsidy would result in a significant exodus from many private health funds with a resultant increase in load on the public health system. The result - the people complaining about the private health insurance subsidy will be the same people complaining that the waiting list for their hip replacement/gall bladder operation/tonsillectomy has blown out another 6 months.
Healthcare is a poisoned chalice for government. There is NO perfect system and there is NO system that will meet community needs. Australia has the best of both types of system and you will get high-quality treatment in both. Be thankful for that. |
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| DIDI |
| quote: | Originally posted by quidgydog
Ok, starting to get into the reaches of a typical left-wing/right-wing debate here. To say we have more in common with the US system than the UK system is not correct. The foundation of the Australian system is still the Medicare system which is similar to the UK NHS system in that the basis is a government funded healthcare system that the public does not have to pay for (and I will NOT get into an arguement about GP gap payments here). The Australian private healthcare system is similar to the US system where it is a more user-pays/insurance-pays system. This is a simplistic view and every statement I have made so far is not 100% correct, simply because neither the UK nor US systems can be considered to be similar to ours.
The arguement about the Private Health subsidy has no simple answer. People throw figures around the place about what it 'costs', but the fact is that it has taken significant load off the public health system. When it was introduced private health membership was at an all-time low and its implementation brought a lot of people into private health membership. Despite this, the membership of private health funds is tapering off again. The removal of the 30% subsidy would result in a significant exodus from many private health funds with a resultant increase in load on the public health system. The result - the people complaining about the private health insurance subsidy will be the same people complaining that the waiting list for their hip replacement/gall bladder operation/tonsillectomy has blown out another 6 months.
Healthcare is a poisoned chalice for government. There is NO perfect system and there is NO system that will meet community needs. Australia has the best of both types of system and you will get high-quality treatment in both. Be thankful for that. |
These arguments should be based on facts not political bias. I am proudly left wing but I like to research the facts and base my opinions accordingly.
And I am so sick of people putting words in my mouth , I said HEADING towards the US system and no matter what it was based on, as you said we are more similar in the user/pays areas etc., and did I say I wasn't thankful? I consider myself very lucky. I live in a great country near one of the best hospitals.I'm also lucky in that I'm fit and healthy and enjoy life immensely. I just don't think we should wait until we are as badly off as other countries to do something about it. As for taking a load off,
Burden on public hospitals
By Carol Nader
December 13, 2004
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Fewer than 5 per cent of emergency patients admitted to Victorian public hospitals declare themselves as private patients, despite almost half the population now having private health insurance.
A new analysis of Victorian hospital data shows that although private health insurance cover has risen to 45 per cent from 31 per cent in 1998-99, there has been no corresponding reduction in public hospital attendances.
The study, published today in the Australian Health Review, suggests that public hospitals are still "shouldering the burden of severe disease".
The lead author of the study, epidemiologist Vijaya Sundararajan, said private patients appeared to be making greater use of their health insurance for surgical procedures.
Dr Sundararajan said public hospitals still accounted for more than 90 per cent of emergency admissions. She said the aim of the study was to assess whether private health insurance had eased the burden on the public system and provided greater choice.
The figures show that the proportion of general private hospital admissions rose by 31 per cent between 1998-99 and 2004 to 651,000, but Dr Sundararajan said surgical procedures and same-day admissions accounted for most of the rise.
Public hospital admissions rose by 18 per cent during the same period to more than 1 million, while private patients using the public system rose by 12 per cent to almost 75,000 admissions.
Dr Sundararajan said rather than ease pressure on public hospitals, private health insurance might exacerbate existing problems. "If elective surgery is seen as easily and readily available, then potentially clinicians are more likely to recommend surgery as opposed to less aggressive approaches, and then patients will believe that they need surgery in order to improve, when sometimes that may not be the case," she said."
Reading your post I actually realised that you're arguing with yourself there so I think I'll just leave you to it.:) |
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| quidgydog |
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
And I am so sick of people putting words in my mouth , I said HEADING towards the US system and no matter what it was based on, as you said we are more similar in the user/pays areas etc.
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BUT
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
Trance Nutter of course I read Helen's post. My point is that we have far more in common with the american system.
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Anyway . . . . . . .
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
Dr Sundararajan said rather than ease pressure on public hospitals, private health insurance might exacerbate existing problems. "If elective surgery is seen as easily and readily available, then potentially clinicians are more likely to recommend surgery as opposed to less aggressive approaches, and then patients will believe that they need surgery in order to improve, when sometimes that may not be the case," she said."
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Now THAT is bona-fide bull.
DIDI, the point I was hoping to make is that this is a never ending debate. The nature of the health care industry is that supply can never meet demand, demand will always increase to consume available supply and more. There is not perfect system and if I could spare the time between patients I would be able to find as many references as you wanted to argue any point-of-view we chose.
My post was by no means a personal attack on you or what you wrote, just an opinion from a different point-of-view. |
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| DIDI |
| quote: | Originally posted by quidgydog
BUT
Anyway . . . . . . .
Now THAT is bona-fide bull.
DIDI, the point I was hoping to make is that this is a never ending debate. The nature of the health care industry is that supply can never meet demand, demand will always increase to consume available supply and more. There is not perfect system and if I could spare the time between patients I would be able to find as many references as you wanted to argue any point-of-view we chose.
My post was by no means a personal attack on you or what you wrote, just an opinion from a different point-of-view. |
Why is there a "but" between my two comments they are essentially saying the same thing just in a different tense. [and agreeing with you.
Second point yeah I wasn't totally comfortable with that doctors quote either but I don't like to censor.
You're right it can be never ending and it might be just as easy if we just throw copies of the Age and the Sun at each other. :D
btw Always interested in other peoples opinions. |
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| Trance Nutter |
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
Does that mean we should just accept everything as it is?[ I ask this in the nicest possible way.:) ] |
Although I clearly and very obviously said:
| quote: | Originally posted by me
Not defending it all though, bloody oath it could be better. |
I never said anything like we should accept it. |
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| DIDI |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance Nutter
Although I clearly and very obviously said:
I never said anything like we should accept it. |
No, just that we should be thankful for what we have, and I am, and you've just answered my question so thank you .:) |
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| quidgydog |
| quote: | Originally posted by DIDI
You're right it can be never ending and it might be just as easy if we just throw copies of the Age and the Sun at each other. :D
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Actually, to get unbiased, factual reports from any media source is damn near impossible as well. |
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| Trance Nutter |
| quote: | Originally posted by quidgydog
Actually, to get unbiased, factual reports from any media source is damn near impossible as well. |
Adelaide Advertiser being case in point. About 80-90% of their major stories have a clear agenda being pushed by the paper. |
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| aL_mAc |
there is truth in everyones arguments here, fark ive go so much to say on this... there is also no political bias in my stuff its all taken from my lecture notes
quidgy... having just completed an entire unit on this very topic i feel some passion in making people realise what is really going on with healthcare, its funding and its protocols!
DIDI, you wanna know why the subsidies are going to the private health care system? cos it saves the government more money long term!
by creating subsidys and rebates aswell as funding for the private system it is alleviating the majority of the strain on the public system. although that report you submitted was contradictorary to what im saying it doesnt take into account the population expansion in need of healthcare nor does it take into account the rising cost of treatments and staffing!
there is also the factor of medical rationing to take into account... not all treamtents or services are given equity across the system. this is hard to explain in such a short post!
also in saying we are becoming more like the US system i can see your point and what you are getting at however the US has a completely user pay system which is why everyone has health insurance! in the UK the NHS provides care for the ppeople there but due to the magnitude of the population and a host of other socio-economic and environmental problems it isnt working the way it is intended... (another story all together)
In australia our public system is a hybrid of both the american and NHS (UK) systems. medibank came about as an adaptation of a dutch or swiss model (i forget) for health in the mid 70's i believe and was phased out when the change of government came in around 1980. it was then reintroduced a little later in a new form medicare which was a more aptly version of medibank specific to the australian publics needs. it was designed to meet the needs of the trends in the population at the time (see census data circa 1972) and not for what it actually is. You cant predict the future 100% as the government has found out and thus they have had to make changes as they have gone through kinda like patch jobs in a wall.. however with the current trends in our population like i mentioned earlier it cannot sustain itself.
quidy you are 100% correct in saying that supply will never meet demand because of the needs and wants of the public as well as the funding available, which is where the rationing comes into play.
ive lost my point @ this stage so i will review and post again soon, it is late afterall.. good arguments/insight though!!
if anyone is interested i have a major paper on the topic if youd like to read it.. just pm me.. |
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