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Why to vote Liberal, NDP, Green, etc...
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| MarkT |
I don't make a habit of telling people how to vote...that's your business. Here are my reasons for suggesting that people reconsider if they plan to vote for the CPC though.
Harper:
- will reduce the GST by 2%, costing the gov't billions in revenue
- will abandon the Kyoto protocols
- will scrap the First Nations agreement
- is alotting a mere $25/week per family for day care
- will re-open the missle defense debate with the U.S.
- will put gay marriage to a free vote in the House of Commons
I'd ask him this:
- where is that lost GST revenue going to be recouped? Why remove taxation from consumption instead of just putting money into the pockets of the lower and middle classes via income tax cuts AT THE SOURCE. A guy buying a Porsche doesn't need that 2% back!
- why is his plan better than Kyoto (and how coincidental is it that abandoning Kyoto appeases the oil companies, Ralph Klein, and George Bush)? How hypocritical and embarassing is it to abandon a cause that WE championed to the rest of the world???
- what is his replacement for the First Nations agreement? Why scrap a plan that wasn't merely a Liberal plan, but a plan that was arrived at with support of ALL provincial leaders and the First Nations? Given that it took 18 months to draft this plan, how long will it take to draft his, ASSUMING he can get everyone on board? So how long until First Nations people see a dime?
- stay-at-home parents will love the $1200 they get for child care...but $25/week doesn't even cover a DAY's worth of day care...nevermind a week. How is that a "solution" to the current problem facing low income and single parents?
- if Harper is so hot on free votes...on the people making decisions...then, given fierce public opposition to missle defense, why will he revisit it?
- Harper has also explictly stated that that Liberal appointed judges and a Liberal controlled Senate will act a check and balance against his gov't. Why do we need checks Mr. Harper? What exactly are you saying? That you have an agenda that we won't like? Are you daring to question the impartiality of our courts?
- Why has Harper not decisievely spoken out against an MP who claims that gay marriage is a battle between "righteousness and immorality"? An MP (his health critic at the time) who called for women to seek 3rd party counselling prior to an abortion? Is it a coincidence that his more radical MPs have removed references to their past from their sites? Like a senior member of Promise Keepers? Pro-life organizations? etc? i.e. why is the CPC hiding it's conservative agenda? Is Harper deceiving to his more right-wing supporters or is he lying to the rest of us?
Mark my words...there IS an agenda that has not been disclosed...and if the CPC takes power, we will see it...particularly if Canadians grant the CPC a majority. This is NOT the CPC of old...this is the old Alliance. Stephen Harper is the George Bush of Canada...
Vote Liberal...vote NDP...vote Green...but if you're voting CPC, ask yourself if you REALLY want the CPC in gov't...or if you're only voting CPC because you don't like the Liberals and think they are the only alternative.
I'm sure it's been posted (I've been holed up at Shouldice with a Hernia repair until today), but I found Michael Moore's two cents funny too:
| quote: | Oh, Canada -- you're not really going to elect a Conservative majority on Monday, are you? That's a joke, right? I know you have a great sense of humor, and certainly a well-developed sense of irony, but this is no longer funny. Maybe it's a new form of Canadian irony -- reverse irony! OK, now I get it. First, you have the courage to stand against the war in Iraq -- and then you elect a prime minister who's for it. You declare gay people have equal rights -- and then you elect a man who says they don't. You give your native peoples their own autonomy and their own territory -- and then you vote for a man who wants to cut aid to these poorest of your citizens. Wow, that is intense! Only Canadians could pull off a hat trick of humor like that. My hat's off to you.
Far be it from me, as an American, to suggest what you should do. You already have too many Americans telling you what to do. Well, actually, you've got just one American who keeps telling you to roll over and fetch and sit. I hope you don't feel this appeal of mine is too intrusive but I just couldn't sit by, as your friend, and say nothing. Yes, I agree, the Liberals have some 'splainin' to do. And yes, one party in power for more than a decade gets a little... long. But you have a parliamentary system (I'll bet you didn't know that -- see, that's why you need Americans telling you things!). There are ways at the polls to have your voices heard other than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
These are no ordinary times, and as you go to the polls on Monday, you do so while a man running the nation to the south of you is hoping you can lend him a hand by picking Stephen Harper because he's a man who shares his world view. Do you want to help George Bush by turning Canada into his latest conquest? Is that how you want millions of us down here to see you from now on? The next notch in the cowboy belt? C'mon, where's your Canadian pride? I mean, if you're going to reduce Canada to a cheap download of Bush & Co., then at least don't surrender so easily. Can't you wait until he threatens to bomb Regina? Make him work for it, for Pete's sake.
But seriously, I know you're not going to elect a guy who should really be running for governor of Utah. Whew! I knew it! You almost had me there. Very funny. Don't do that again. God, I love you, you crazy cold wonderful neighbors to my north. Don't ever change.
Michael Moore |
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| Matt |
| not to mention his Child Care plan is a ing joke. |
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| arek |
| is there an option to vote yet choose - none of the above? |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: |
- where is that lost GST revenue going to be recouped? |
We have a 9.1 Billion dollar budget SURPLUSS. That means the government took 9.1 billion dollars TOO MUCH from US in taxes.
[qoute]Why remove taxation from consumption instead of just putting money into the pockets of the lower and middle classes via income tax cuts AT THE SOURCE.[/quote]
The lowest percentiles of income earners do not pay ANY INCOME TAX since their income falls within the personal exemption allowance. That means that an income tax cut would only affect a small segment of the lower income bracket. A GST cut will allow ALL people of ALL incomes to save money including those that DO NOT pay income taxes to begin with.
| quote: | | A guy buying a Porsche doesn't need that 2% back! |
maybe not, but even with income tax breaks, the guy making more money is obviously going to save more money.
| quote: | | - why is his plan better than Kyoto (and how coincidental is it that abandoning Kyoto appeases the oil companies, Ralph Klein, and George Bush)? How hypocritical and embarassing is it to abandon a cause that WE championed to the rest of the world??? |
Kyoto is nothing but a money sharing scheme. It has NOTHING to do with the environment. It is a way to redistribute wealth from wealthy nations to corrupt third world regimes. If Kyoto were actually serious then it would include high polluters such as Mexico, China and India. The only way we have lived up to Kyoto so far is by SENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS VIA THE PURCHASING OF POLLUTION CREDITS.
This is not the way to save the environment.
| quote: | | - what is his replacement for the First Nations agreement? Why scrap a plan that wasn't merely a Liberal plan, but a plan that was arrived at with support of ALL provincial leaders and the First Nations? Given that it took 18 months to draft this plan, how long will it take to draft his, ASSUMING he can get everyone on board? So how long until First Nations people see a dime? |
What have the liberals done? What about that settlement up north that didnt even have proper running water? Reservations are a disgrace and an emberassment. Harper is right when he says that the way the government handles indian affairs needs to be overhauled because right now its a complete failure. We have corrupt third world governments right here in our own country and im not just talking liberals. Unchecked Aboriginal governments are bandits. And please, that comment has nothing to do with race so lets not even go there.
| quote: | | - stay-at-home parents will love the $1200 they get for child care...but $25/week doesn't even cover a DAY's worth of day care...nevermind a week. How is that a "solution" to the current problem facing low income and single parents? |
No one is saying that its a solution. Its a method of helping. First off the idea of a national universal daycare programme scares the hell out of me. Why? Because we cant even get our health programme in order! You think i want colossal waste and cost associated with this? No thanks!
And why should the state pay the whole cost of health care? If you cant afford to have kids then dont have them! Its simple!
Lastly, why should the state decide whats best for your child? National daycare means you have no choice but to have a stranger care for your kid. Why not allow parents choice by giving them the means to opt for daycare at a centre or by a relative or friend?
| quote: | | - if Harper is so hot on free votes...on the people making decisions...then, given fierce public opposition to missle defense, why will he revisit it? |
free vote is exactly that. If MPS vote based on the will of their constituiants then we will get what the country wants. This is how the parliamentary system was SUPPOSED to work. This is why the Prime minister is supposed to be "just another minister with just another vote". This is why if you notice in the house of commons the PM has a seat just like the other MPs. No special throne. Sadly the Liberals have succeeding into turnin PM's into monarchies and it looks like we are used to it.
On missle defense. Canada doesnt have to pay a cent and the US is going to do it with or without us. All the US is asking is that we have some military officials on hand to work with them much like we do now with NORAD. it would be IN OUR BEST SOVERIEGN INTEREST and WOULD NOT COST US A THING if we joined them on this. They are going to use our airspace whether we like it or not. Wouldnt you rather we have a say in it?
| quote: | | - Harper has also explictly stated that that Liberal appointed judges and a Liberal controlled Senate will act a check and balance against his gov't. Why do we need checks Mr. Harper? What exactly are you saying? That you have an agenda that we won't like? Are you daring to question the impartiality of our courts? |
he is saying that despite the fear mongering out there even if there was a hidden agenda, it couldnt be implemented. Its his way of saying "dont beleive them because they are wrong, and even if they were right about us this is also why it couldnt happen"
And yes he is daring to question the impartiality of the courts. Because its painfully obvious how politicized they are.
| quote: | | - Why has Harper not decisievely spoken out against an MP who claims that gay marriage is a battle between "righteousness and immorality"? An MP (his health critic at the time) who called for women to seek 3rd party counselling prior to an abortion? Is it a coincidence that his more radical MPs have removed references to their past from their sites? Like a senior member of Promise Keepers? Pro-life organizations? etc? i.e. why is the CPC hiding it's conservative agenda? Is Harper deceiving to his more right-wing supporters or is he lying to the rest of us? |
hes not hiding anything. He has specifically detailed his view on same sex marriage. He has said that he will not open up the abortion debate repeatedly. Its the left wing that keeps bringing this up. Not the Conservatives. They have been clear as to what their agenda is.
[qoute}Mark my words...there IS an agenda that has not been disclosed...and if the CPC takes power, we will see it...particularly if Canadians grant the CPC a majority. This is NOT the CPC of old...this is the old Alliance. Stephen Harper is the George Bush of Canada...[/quote}
proof? Im more scared of the liberal agenda that we do know about than a fantasy conservative one that wont happen.
| quote: | | Vote Liberal...vote NDP...vote Green...but if you're voting CPC, ask yourself if you REALLY want the CPC in gov't...or if you're only voting CPC because you don't like the Liberals and think they are the only alternative. |
Yes i do because i can trust that they will do what they say and i happen to like most of their ideas.
| quote: | | I'm sure it's been posted (I've been holed up at Shouldice with a Hernia repair until today), but I found Michael Moore's two cents funny too: |
Private clinics save the day!
LOL |
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| mikester69 |
| quote: | Originally posted by arek
is there an option to vote yet choose - none of the above? |
I'm going to write "%&*$ you all" on my ballot----more people should do this too |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by mikester69
I'm going to write "%&*$ you all" on my ballot----more people should do this too |
that wont do anything but make the person counting to ballots laugh.
If you want to make an impact you can officially decline your ballot by telling them that you wish to do so. The ballot will go into a declined folder at the end of the day and will be recorded as such. The candidates will also see this result as it is officially recorded. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by arek
is there an option to vote yet choose - none of the above? |
Yes, go in and officially decline your ballot.
Do NOT spoil it. That just makes you look like a retard to the person counting the ballots and doesnt officially count as anything. |
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| ShadoWolf |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
- where is that lost GST revenue going to be recouped? Why remove taxation from consumption instead of just putting money into the pockets of the lower and middle classes via income tax cuts AT THE SOURCE. A guy buying a Porsche doesn't need that 2% back! |
It doesn't have to be recouped - that's the whole point. There's a massive fiscal imbalalnce in this country. The federal government has far more money than it needs. It's running massive surpluses, which tempt Lieberals to spend it on provincial issues (which increases separatism). We need to put money back in the hands of Canadians.
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servle.../20050930/C5976
Spare us the Marxist drivel about "tax cuts for the rich." According to the NDP, someone making $60,000 is "rich." :rolleyes:
The GST cut is part of a larger package proposed by the CPC, including capital gains changes that will save middle-class Canadians thousands of dollars.
| quote: |
- why is his plan better than Kyoto (and how coincidental is it that abandoning Kyoto appeases the oil companies, Ralph Klein, and George Bush)? How hypocritical and embarassing is it to abandon a cause that WE championed to the rest of the world??? |
Firstly, the Kyoto Accord has nothing to do with the environment - it's a wealth redistribution scheme. The world's worst polluters aren't even signatories, including China and India.
http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3
The fact is, the U.S. has cut emissions more than Canada has WITHOUT signing Kyoto.
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051209/w120960.html
The CPC plan would do far more to help the environment:
-legislated reductions in emissions
-investments in clean technologies
-transit pass tax credit to encourage mass transit use
-etc. (see platform here)
| quote: |
- what is his replacement for the First Nations agreement? Why scrap a plan that wasn't merely a Liberal plan, but a plan that was arrived at with support of ALL provincial leaders and the First Nations? Given that it took 18 months to draft this plan, how long will it take to draft his, ASSUMING he can get everyone on board? So how long until First Nations people see a dime? |
The current Indian Act is racist and favours corrupt tribal chiefs.
A Conservative government will:
• Accept the targets agreed upon at the recent Meeting of First Ministers and National Aboriginal Leaders, and work with first ministers and national aboriginal leaders on achieving these targets.
• Support the development of individual property ownership on reserves, to encourage lending for private housing and businesses.
• Let aboriginal parents choose the schooling they want for their children, with funding following the students.
• Replace the Indian Act (and related legislation) with a modern legislative framework which provides for the devolution of full legal and democratic responsibility to aboriginal Canadians for their own affairs within the Constitution, including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
• Pursue settlement of all outstanding “comprehensive claims” within a clear framework that balances the rights of aboriginal claimants with those of Canada.
• Adopt measures to resolve the existing backlog of “specific” claims so as to provide justice for aboriginal claimants, together with certainty for government, industry, and non-aboriginal Canadians.
• Implement all of the recommendations of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development contained in its fourth report on Resolving Indian Residential School Claims, to expedite the settlement of claims and save money.
• Recognize the contributions of Aboriginal veterans, and redress 60 years of inequity by implementing the resolution of the House of Commons to acknowledge the historic inequality of treatment and compensation for First Nations, Métis, and Inuit war veterans, and take action immediately to give real
compensation to these veterans in a way that truly respects their service and sacrifice.
The CPC will re-introduce changes to the Indian Act that were nixed by Martin (in his little spat with Chretien).
The CPC got the endoresement of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples.
| quote: | | - stay-at-home parents will love the $1200 they get for child care...but $25/week doesn't even cover a DAY's worth of day care...nevermind a week. How is that a "solution" to the current problem facing low income and single parents? |
This is a step towards Australia's excellent voucher system. It gives families the choice to spend the money as they see fit. The last thing we need is another massive federal bureaucracy run out of Ottawa.
One aspect you're missing is that the CPC will create an environment for new spaces to be created.
-Under the Community Childcare Investment Program, employers who create new childcare spaces for their employees, or for the wider community in collaboration with not-for-profit organizations, will be eligible to receive a credit of $10,000 per space. This program will create 25,000 new spaces per year, or 125,000 over the next five years.
| quote: | | - if Harper is so hot on free votes...on the people making decisions...then, given fierce public opposition to missle defense, why will he revisit it? |
First of all, we don't know that there's "fierce" public opposition to it. There hasn't been a referendum on it, and there's been barely any intelligent debate on the issue.
Second, it should be revisited because Martin rejected it for political reasons. AdScam was hurting him in Quebec, so he appealed to Quebec's pacifist traditition and flip-flopped on the issue. Martin put politics and power above national security - that's shameful. We need to have an intelligent debate on the issue, that's why Harper will revisit it.
Former Liberal PM's like St. Laurant and Pearson would roll in their graves if they knew how Martin handled this issue. They sought to protect Canada's interest without being anti-American. Canada should take part of BMD and make sure it's an integral part of NORAD.
| quote: | | - Harper has also explictly stated that that Liberal appointed judges and a Liberal controlled Senate will act a check and balance against his gov't. Why do we need checks Mr. Harper? What exactly are you saying? That you have an agenda that we won't like? Are you daring to question the impartiality of our courts? |
EVERY government needs checks and balances. This is a democracy, not a dictatorship.
| quote: | | - Why has Harper not decisievely spoken out against an MP who claims that gay marriage is a battle between "righteousness and immorality"? An MP (his health critic at the time) who called for women to seek 3rd party counselling prior to an abortion? Is it a coincidence that his more radical MPs have removed references to their past from their sites? Like a senior member of Promise Keepers? Pro-life organizations? etc? i.e. why is the CPC hiding it's conservative agenda? Is Harper deceiving to his more right-wing supporters or is he lying to the rest of us? |
Why hasn't Martin spoken out against "rabid" social conservatives in his party, like Tom Wappel, Paul Szabo, Jim Karygiannis, Dan McTeague, and others?
Why is he hiding them? :rolleyes:
The point is, social issues are deeply personal moral questions and should be decided by free votes. There is a wide ranage of opinions on social issues in all parties.
| quote: | | Mark my words...there IS an agenda that has not been disclosed...and if the CPC takes power, we will see it...particularly if Canadians grant the CPC a majority. This is NOT the CPC of old...this is the old Alliance. |
Actually it has been disclosed, right here.
| quote: | | Stephen Harper is the George Bush of Canada... |
Actually, Stephen Harper is more like the John Kerry of Canada. In fact, John Kerry is to the right of Harper.
The Bumbling Fool role is played by Martin.
In fact, Harper and the CPC is arguably more left-wing than Chile's new Socialist President (platform here).
| quote: | | Vote Liberal...vote NDP...vote Green...but if you're voting CPC, ask yourself if you REALLY want the CPC in gov't...or if you're only voting CPC because you don't like the Liberals and think they are the only alternative. |
The Lieberals have done a great deal of damage to this country. We have a 20th economy, a corrupt system of government, and a separatist problem.
It's time for change. |
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| MarkT |
there SHOULD be a surplus...we are the only industrialized nation PAYING DOWN it's debt, are we not?
tax breaks can be adjusted on income...i.e. raise the threshold where income tax need not be paid, give a larger break to the lower and middle brackets, give a lesser one to the highest, etc. a 2% GST cut rewards those the most who spend the most (i.e. those with the most money to spend, NOT the poorest)
the First Nations agreement is SOMETHING...Harper has nothing...and will take months, or years, to get everyone to agree again. In the meantime, First Nations people get *nothing*.
again, don't point to "the Liberals" this and "the Liberals" that...my post is NOT an advocacy of the Liberal gov't...it's a post suggesting that people may want to reconsider voting CPC.
Harper and the CPC is not what's going to make this country "right" (if you think it's wrong in the first place, which I don't). |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
there SHOULD be a surplus...we are the only industrialized nation PAYING DOWN it's debt, are we not? |
then why arent we?
| quote: | | tax breaks can be adjusted on income...i.e. raise the threshold where income tax need not be paid, give a larger break to the lower and middle brackets, give a lesser one to the highest, etc. |
you are right it CAN be done but the liberal plan doesnt do it that way. And ive never been a fan of punishing people for being successful in the first place.
| quote: | | a 2% GST cut rewards those the most who spend the most (i.e. those with the most money to spend, NOT the poorest) |
it rewards EVERYONE from top to bottom.
| quote: |
the First Nations agreement is SOMETHING...Harper has nothing...and will take months, or years, to get everyone to agree again. In the meantime, First Nations people get *nothing*. |
its classic "throw money at a problem in order to fix it" thinking. The conservatives have said that they will overhaul the whole system instead of just throwing good money after bad.
| quote: | | again, don't point to "the Liberals" this and "the Liberals" that...my post is NOT an advocacy of the Liberal gov't...it's a post suggesting that people may want to reconsider voting CPC. |
But they are the governing party and have been for 12 years. Theirs is the only real record we can go on. Anything else is speculation. But we do know that the liberals agenda has done us wrong.
Harper and the CPC is not what's going to make this country "right" |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
I don't make a habit of telling people how to vote...that's your business. Here are my reasons for suggesting that people reconsider if they plan to vote for the CPC though.
Harper:
- will reduce the GST by 2%, costing the gov't billions in revenue |
And putting money back into everyone's pockets. Personally I think taxes are too high. More money I have in my pocket, more I can spend boosting economy
| quote: |
- will abandon the Kyoto protocols |
Prove to me that greenhouse effect is the primary reason for global warming. (Earth's temperature has been rising since the Last Age ftr)
Also show me a comprehensive plan that will actually work instead of current mumbojumbo that no nation really has no heart to implement it.
| quote: | | - will scrap the First Nations agreement |
Don't know enough about it to comment
| quote: | | - is alotting a mere $25/week per family for day care |
I'd rather have child care places to be more accessable to all families, instead of putting some money into parents.
| quote: | | - will re-open the missle defense debate with the U.S. |
Canada is going to be part of missile defence, whether we like it or not. Something called NORAD I believe.
IMO missile defence is a silly idea, but you'd think security conscious America is going to be stopped by Canada saying no? Better Canada should actively be involved in something that we're already in anyways.
| quote: | | - will put gay marriage to a free vote in the House of Commons |
So people's representatives shouldn't be the one deciding this?
As for Mr Moore, weren't the American conservatives told to STFU about Canadian elections? Moore's words mean all to me in any case but still. :p |
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