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More of the same story in Iraq - Rummy and Franks this time
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| MisterOpus1 |
Field commanders? We don't need no stinkin' field commanders!:
| quote: | The White House and Pentagon promised "shock and awe," but the new book "Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq" describes a U.S. military command that was itself shocked by Saddam's paramilitary — the Fedayeen, non-uniformed militias in pickup trucks with AK47s — the roots of today's insurgency.
They thought that if we take Baghdad, the war is over," says author Michael Gordon, the New York Times' chief military correspondent. "In reality, you're just entering a new phase of the war."
In the book, Gordon portrays a Pentagon constantly second-guessing its own field commanders.
I think they didn’t learn the lessons of the early battles," he says. "And I think we're paying a price for that today."
From hundreds of interviews and classified documents, the book lists critical warnings that were ignored. For instance, the Pentagon thought its bloodiest battles would be with Saddam's Republican Guard. Instead, it melted away. But a Marine intelligence officer warned that the Fedayeen's "hit and run attacks" would persist.
"Tommy Franks, the central commander, considered they were a speed bump on the way to Baghdad," says retired Marine Gen. Bernard Trainor, who co-authored the book.
And when the Army's field commander, Gen. William Wallace, told reporters he wanted to stay and fight the Fedayeen and that the enemy was "a bit different because of the paramilitary forces than the one we war-gamed against," Washington exploded at his remarks and his caution, and Wallace was almost fired.
Later, when Baghdad fell, the authors say Franks was so confident he asked for a plan to withdraw all but 40,000 troops in six months.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11812531/ |
Who needs intelligence officers and field commanders when you have Rummy at the reins?
But at least Bush pinned Franks with a medal:
This is truly one of the strangest Administrations I've ever witnessed. You up - you get a little handslap. You REALLY up, you get a medal. And if you REALLY, REALLY up, why you just get yurself a promotion.
And so it goes in the lovely world of Dubya.
Speaking of Dubya, get a load of these lovely little marks:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060313/pl_nm/bush_poll_dc
That CBS poll isn't lookin' so much like a darn liberal media bias after all. Strange that. But this following question really is the kicker:
| quote: | | Two-thirds, 67 percent, of respondents thought Bush did not have a clear plan for handling the situation in Iraq |
Well, actually that was a little kicker. Here's the BIG kicker:
| quote: | Do you think the Bush administration deliberately misled the American public about whether Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, or not?
Yes: 51%
No: 46% |
That's "misled", a really, really, really close relative of "outright ing lied to everyone," and has no relation to the "use of bad intelligence" kid in the GOP corner.
Down the rabbit hole we continue....... |
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| Renegade |
I wouldn't be so annoyed at Rumsfeld and the rest of them if they just took some responsibility for what was happening in Iraq right now, or at least gave some sort of indication that they were aware of the severity of the situation and had some plan in mind to deal with it. So far, however, it seems like Rumsfeld's been living with his head up his arse since the fall of Baghdad:
| quote: | From what I've seen thus far, much of the reporting in the U.S. and abroad has exaggerated the situation, according to General Casey," Rumsfeld said. "The number of attacks on mosques, as he pointed out, had been exaggerated. The number of Iraqi deaths had been exaggerated."
[...]
"Interestingly, all of the exaggerations seem to be on one side," he said. "It isn't as though there simply have been a series of random errors on both sides of issues. On the contrary, the steady stream of errors all seem to be of a nature to inflame the situation and to give heart to the terrorists and to discourage those who hope for success in Iraq."
[...]
He said the terrorist group al Qaeda "has media committees" and tutors people on how to "manipulate" news organizations.
"Now I can't take a string and tie it to a news report and then trace it back to an al Qaeda media committee meeting. I'm not able to do that at all," he said.
[...]
Rumsfeld claimed Iran was sending "Iranian Quds-force type people," or a division of Iran's Revolutionary Guards, into Iraq.
"They're currently putting people into Iraq to do things that are harmful to the future of Iraq," he said. "And we know it. And it is something that they, I think, will look back on as having been an error in judgment. "
Rumsfeld said he suspected Iran was backing the military forces. Revolutionary Guard-type forces don't "go milling around willy-nilly, one would think," he said.
Pace added the U.S. military believes some of the homemade bombs used in Iraq "are traceable back to Iran." |
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast...iraq/index.html
Like how he tries pinning the blame for the past three years of violence on the liberal media and Iran rather than his own ineptness? Is he doing it to defelct blame from the administration, which would be bad enough, or does he genuinely believe what he's saying, which would be exponentially worse? |
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| Q5echo |
those quotes say nothing of blaming liberal media for violence.
you want to talk about REPORTING the violence, that would be something altogether different. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
those quotes say nothing of blaming liberal media for violence. |
| quote: | | "[T]he steady stream of errors all seem to be of a nature to inflame the situation and to give heart to the terrorists and to discourage those who hope for success in Iraq." |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
That's "misled", a really, really, really close relative of "outright ing lied to everyone," and has no relation to the "use of bad intelligence" kid in the GOP corner.
Down the rabbit hole we continue....... |
whatever, propagandist. the military is weary of you're armchair quarterbacking and pessimism. begone you naysayer of nation building.
take this with you...
| quote: | Tapes reveal WMD plans by Saddam
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 13, 2006
Audiotapes of Saddam Hussein and his aides underscore the Bush administration's argument that Baghdad was determined to rebuild its arsenal of weapons of mass destruction once the international community had tired of inspections and left the Iraqi dictator alone.
In addition to the captured tapes, U.S. officials are analyzing thousands of pages of newly translated Iraqi documents that tell of Saddam seeking uranium from Africa in the mid-1990s.
The documents also speak of burying prohibited missiles, according to a government official familiar with the declassification process.
But it is not clear whether Baghdad did what the documents indicate, said the U.S. official, who asked not to be named.
"The factories are present," an Iraqi aide tells Saddam on one of the tapes, made by the dictator in the mid-1990s while U.N. weapons inspectors were searching for Baghdad's remaining stocks of weapons of mass destruction.
"The factories remain, in the mind they remain. Our spirit is with us, based solely on the time period," the aide says, according to the documents. "And [inspectors] take note of the time period, they can't account for our will."
The quote is from roughly 12 hours of taped conversations that unexpectedly landed in the lap of Bill Tierney, a former Army warrant officer and Arabic speaker who was translating for the FBI tapes unearthed in Iraq after the invasion.
Mr. Tierney made a copy, which he provided to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The committee in turn gave a copy to intelligence analysts who authenticated the voice as that of Saddam.
Mr. Tierney said that the quote from the Saddam aide, and scores of others, show Saddam was rebuilding his once-ample weapons stocks.
"The tapes show that Saddam rebuilt his program and successfully prevented the U.N. from finding out about it," he said.
There also exists a quote from the dictator himself, who ordered the tapings to keep a record of his inner-sanctum discussions, that Mr. Tierney thinks shows Saddam planned to use a proxy to attack the United States.
"Terrorism is coming ... with the Americans," Saddam said. "With the Americans, two years ago, not a long while ago, with the English I believe, there was a campaign ... with one of them, that in the future there would be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction." |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally said by Rummy
"The steady stream of errors all seem to be of a nature to inflame the situation and to give heart to the terrorists and to discourage those who hope for success in Iraq." |
that would be a true statement, yes. next. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
whatever, propagandist. |
Give me one ing example where I reported anything pertaining to the Iraq situation that has turned out to be false.
Just one example, please.
| quote: | | the military is weary of you're armchair quarterbacking and pessimism. begone you naysayer of nation building. |
Yeah, I can see how my pessimism is causing this:
| quote: | 
Dawn estimates that mortar attacks and bombings in Iraq killed 80 persons on Sunday. Other sources suggest the number of wounded may exceed 200. Some 52 of the dead were killed by carbombings at markets in Shiite Sadr City, east Baghdad. The violence is aimed at provoking sectarian warfare, in hopes it would force the US out and pave the way for a coup by the guerrillas.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6031200580.html |
And the fact that 3 years after the Iraqi Airport was conquered by the Americans, it's still not secure:
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/ne...AIRPORT-COL.XML
Or here ya go. Here's some ing "propaganda" for you - that for some reason I can't seem to find in one American paper - can you?:
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/artic...060307213028458
Here's some more "propaganda" that folks like myself report:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Oh yes, I MUST be responsible for this, since I read it and report it to others here:
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14083330.htm
Of course having ing death squads in the Iraq army is my fault. How "unpatriotic" of me, right?
How much more full of can you get? Reporters and folks who felt the invasion of Iraq was wrong on so many accounts are responsible for this Administration's utter incompetence and ineptitude?
No, that's the ing fault of YOUR stupid dip leader, and no one else. He went in without any ing plan whatsoever, and HE has no ing clue how the hell to get out.
I'm still waiting on any tangeable, measurable goals to come from our President, or you for that matter to demonstrate when and how we are doing there.
| quote: | | take this with you... |
They've been sitting on those ing documents for months now, and they haven't shown ANYONE anything regarding them except the Moonie Times. Well ain't that strange? That darn AP press, and any other press company for that matter hasn't been given the access to those documents, but the boot-licking Moonies continue to give the inside scoop on it. And they have such an immense reputation for journalistic integrity too :rolleyes: .
I'll try not to hold my breath too long for this to actually crack a credible news source.
And finally, let's play devil's advocate for just one minute and suppose letting bin Laden go to go after Saddam is proven a worthwhile adventure. How the does that excuse Rummy's absolute idiocy in post-war security and planning? |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
that would be a true statement, yes. next. |
What errors? I thought Bush doesn't do any wrong? Isn't this just part of his grand scheme of pure genious? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Give me one ing example where I reported anything pertaining to the Iraq situation that has turned out to be false.
Just one example, please. |
technically, you don't have to report lies to try to persuade others to come around to your point of view. you just have to manipulate the truth a little bit inflect a little passion and hope the imagination and ignorance of your audience takes a bite. i don't know if thats what you do so i must apologize, as such, for calling you a propagandist. sorry.
| quote: | | Yeah, I can see how my pessimism is causing this: |
we've gone over this before. (i think) and no, you didn't cause it. you don't help the cause either. neither do a lot of people in your position. IMO thats ok, just get ready for a little criticism thrown your way from people that have a little more invested in what you find tragic.
what? so what? it's only THE most secure airport outside Tel-Aviv in the world
i didn't say you were un-patriotic. do you feel un-patriotic? yeah the Iraqi government uncovered some death squads. maybe i should ask you if you feel like chicken little. do you feel like chicken little?
| quote: | | How much more full of can you get? Reporters and folks who felt the invasion of Iraq was wrong on so many accounts are responsible for this Administration's utter incompetence and ineptitude? |
no. reporters and naysayers have the advantage of being able to stand back and do nothing and make themselves look good while the people that make the tough decisions and dodge the mortar rounds and accomplishing something on a level thats never been tried before get on by the people that want to look good.
| quote: | | No, that's the ing fault of YOUR stupid dip leader, and no one else. He went in without any ing plan whatsoever, and HE has no ing clue how the hell to get out. |
you don't mean that. didn't you tell me you read Woodwards book "Bush at War"?
| quote: | | I'm still waiting on any tangeable, measurable goals to come from our President, or you for that matter to demonstrate when and how we are doing there. |
why should i spoon feed you whats right in front of you? noone is gonna tell you when. i think we are doing ok. i know that sounds crazy, but i'm optimistic. i always have been. i think the Iraqi people have proven a lot of people wrong. but i can give you one "demonstratble" tangible that caught me off guard.
after the Golden Mosque bombing Iraq mobilized 100,000 troops (Iraqi troops)to keep the peace without one civilian death by their hand. granted, a few hundred people were murdered as a result of something as horrific as that bombing, but i thought that was amazing...and no civil war.
| quote: | | I'll try not to hold my breath too long for this to actually crack a credible news source. |
i don't know-it's the washington times. take it or leave it. it's a slow process what can i say? i do get the feeling you will be furiously typing away about this soon enough.
| quote: | | And finally, let's play devil's advocate for just one minute and suppose letting bin Laden go to go after Saddam is proven a worthwhile adventure. How the does that excuse Rummy's absolute idiocy in post-war security and planning? |
for starters, i don't have to be an advocate to say that what Iraqis need to do, they have been doing, to make it "worthwhile" to you (pretty in arrogant from a guy sitting at his computer in Kansas).
anyway. to answer a loaded question with a question. when has this ever been done before? |
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| hardcore trancer |
Thank goodness for the Americans,Iraq is now a free country with no future and a civil war happening as we speak.:mad: :rolleyes: |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Thank goodness for the Americans,Iraq is now a free country with no future and a civil war happening as we speak.:mad: :rolleyes: |
speaking of "as we speak", there is another thread just like this one going on (in this same forum!) that you were doing so well in:rolleyes:
i'm sure they miss you there.
could you leave this one alone? pretty please? |
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