A little history lesson for you all this weekend via The History Channel (and YouTube) regarding the Muslim Brotherhood.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
shaolin_Z
Is this a propoganda piece or actual info (I haven't watched it yet)? The Muslim Brother hood is a non-militant political group, and if this paints them as extremists or terrorist, then it's most probably a propoganda peice (although I don't discount the possibility that they are).
shaolin_Z
On another note, you enjoying the Digweed set Jeff?
metalgearsolid
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
On another note, you enjoying the Digweed set Jeff?
I see that you just want to raise your spam count?
Man, the history channel is controlled by the CIA I don't trust a single word they have to say.
CHRles
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Is this a propoganda piece or actual info (I haven't watched it yet)? The Muslim Brother hood is a non-militant political group, and if this paints them as extremists or terrorist, then it's most probably a propoganda peice (although I don't discount the possibility that they are).
Ah yes, the good old Muslim Brotherhood. The ones who had a hand in assasinating Egyptian leader Sadat for making peace with Israel, the ones who have extremely close ties to Hamas, and the same ones who have repeatedly carried out terrorist attacks in Egpyt (especially in tourist resort towns). Such a friendly "non militant" bunch aren't they? :rolleyes:
Fir3start3r
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Is this a propoganda piece or actual info (I haven't watched it yet)? The Muslim Brother hood is a non-militant political group, and if this paints them as extremists or terrorist, then it's most probably a propoganda peice (although I don't discount the possibility that they are).
It's a documentary that was actually broadcast so I can't it being all that biased as a result.
It talks about what spawned the Brotherhood and goes into the splintering extremist factions that spun off as a result of them (them being the splintering factions) making their own interpretations and using violence as a tool for their agendas (something the Brotherhood wouldn't condone).
It's a good primer for those that aren't sure how most all the big name Islamist extremist factions came to be.
ogvh5150
Hamas born, one of many, from the Muslim Brotherhood:
HAMAS was formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas is a Sunni Islamic organization which was established at the beginning of the first Intifada, (December 1987) by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. Hamas is dedicated to the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian State that encompasses Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Paradoxically, the formation of HAMAS was encouraged by the Israeli government, which saw the new group as a religious competitor to the generally secular Palestinian nationalist groups.
The Hamas was established from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood organization that had already been active in the territories. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 to replace secular rulers with an Islamic society. The Muslim Brotherhood is recognized as a social movement, and constitutes a convenient arena for the activities of individuals and groups deriving extreme religious legitimacy from the organization. The Muslim Brotherhood does not only provide ideological and logistical support for the Hamas; The Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was a significant influence behind the formation of the Hamas organization.
On 07 April 2006 it was reported that Hamas was prepared to soften its position toward Israel. Hamas officials said they were prepared to consider a two-state solution with Israel, which would be a major about-face for the group, whose charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state. The two-state platform was to be presented to the Hamas-led Palestinian Cabinet. Hamas officials admited that they are responding to international sanctions which had left the new government broke. Hamas did not spell out what kind of two-state solution it envisions, but it was likely to be rather different from what Israel believes it can live with. Taken from Global Security dot org: HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
According to the U.S. State Dept, Hamas is funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.[2] In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members. The same report quoted Reuven Paz, former head of research for the Shin Bet (Israeli intelligence agency), who described Hamas as "an authentic product of Palestinian society under Israeli rule, more so than the PA." (Palestinian Authority).[6]
Funding
According to the U.S. State Dept,[2] Hamas is funded by Iran (led by a Shiite Islamic regime), Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. The party is known to support families of suicide bombers after their deaths. Some believe the financial support includes a monthly allowance. [28] However, various sources, among them United Press International[29], Le Canard enchaîné, Bill Baar and L'Humanité[30] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth - before its official founding and the creation of the military branch - had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)". Furthermore, the French investigative newspaper Le Canard enchaîné claimed that Shin Bet had also supported Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO and Fatah, in an attempt to give "a religious slant to the conflict, in order to make the West believe that the conflict was between Jews and Muslims", thus supporting the controversial thesis of a "clash of civilizations". [31]. Taken from Hamas
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Apr. 24, 2004 13:38 | Updated Apr. 24, 2004 19:40
Zur: Israel has infiltrated Hamas leadership
By JPOST.COM STAFF
Border Police head Cmdr. David Zur, said Saturday that "Israel has people in the leadership of the Hamas." Zur was responding to a question posed to him regarding Israel's success in finding and killing top terrorist leaders, Ynet reported.
Zur was speaking at a cultural event in Beer Sheba.
"We are excelling in everything connected to human intelligence. We're investing in agents. Israel has excelled beyond belief in this field," Zur said.
Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel
By Richard Sale
UPI Terrorism Correspondent
Published 6/18/2002 8:13 PM
In the wake of a suicide bomb attack Tuesday on a crowded Jerusalem city bus that killed 19 people and wounded at least 70 more, the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, took credit for the blast.
Israeli officials called it the deadliest attack in Jerusalem in six years.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon immediately vowed to fight "Palestinian terror" and summoned his cabinet to decide on a military response to the organization that Sharon had once described as "the deadliest terrorist group that we have ever had to face."
Active in Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas wants to liberate all of Palestine and establish a radical Islamic state in place of Israel. It is has gained notoriety with its assassinations, car bombs and other acts of terrorism.
But Sharon left something out.
Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.
Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.
Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.
According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.
After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.
"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.
According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.
What took Israeli leaders by surprise was the way the Islamic movements began to surge after the Iranian revolution, after armed resistance to Israel sprang up in southern Lebanon vis-à-vis the Hezbollah, backed by Iran, these sources said.
"Nothing provides the energy for imitation as much as success," commented one administration expert.
A further factor of Hamas' growth was the fact the PLO moved its base of operations to Beirut in the '80s, leaving the Islamic organization to grow in influence in the Occupied Territories "as the court of last resort," he said.
When the intifada began, Israeli leadership was surprised when Islamic groups began to surge in membership and strength. Hamas immediately grew in numbers and violence. The group had always embraced the doctrine of armed struggle, but the doctrine had not been practiced and Islamic groups had not been subjected to suppression the way groups like Fatah had been, according to U.S. government officials.
But with the triumph of the Khomeini revolution in Iran, with the birth of Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, Hamas began to gain in strength in Gaza and then in the West Bank, relying on terror to resist the Israeli occupation.
Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: "To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists."
In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous hard-liners," the official said.
In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.
But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.
"Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said.
All of which disgusts some former U.S. intelligence officials.
"The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy," said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro.
According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."
"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."
"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said.
Aid to Hamas may have looked clever, "but it was hardly designed to help smooth the waters," he said. "An operation like that gives weight to President George Bush's remark about there being a crisis in education."
Cordesman said that a similar attempt by Egyptian intelligence to fund Egypt's fundamentalists had also come to grief because of "misreading of the complexities."
An Israeli defense official was asked if Israel had given aid to Hamas said, "I am not able to answer that question. I was in Lebanon commanding a unit at the time, besides it is not my field of interest."
Asked to confirm a report by U.S. officials that Brig. Gen. Yithaq Segev, the military governor of Gaza, had told U.S. officials he had helped fund "Islamic movements as a counterweight to the PLO and communists," the official said he could confirm only that he believed Segev had served back in 1986.
The Israeli Embassy press office referred UPI to its Web site when asked to comment.
Articles reproduced without permission for non-commercial educational use only. All rights reserved.
josh4
quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
A little history lesson for you all this weekend via The History Channel (and YouTube) regarding the Muslim Brotherhood.
very informative thanks for posting
Fir3start3r
quote:
Originally posted by josh4
very informative thanks for posting
no problem.
I didn't realize how much History Television stuff has been uploaded to YouTube before.
I think I might be watching a lot more HT stuff :p
shaolin_Z
quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's a documentary that was actually broadcast so I can't it being all that biased as a result.
It talks about what spawned the Brotherhood and goes into the splintering extremist factions that spun off as a result of them (them being the splintering factions) making their own interpretations and using violence as a tool for their agendas (something the Brotherhood wouldn't condone).
It's a good primer for those that aren't sure how most all the big name Islamist extremist factions came to be.
Kind of like the neo-cons who pose as conservatives when they're anything but. Traditional conservatism has nothing to do with neo-conservatism, just like violentent extreme radical factions have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood.
The documentary does make many claims which have been proven to be complete fiction, for example, an organized network of terrorist cells operating globaly. Adam Curtis' documentary, "The Power of Nightmares," which was aired on the BBC, exposes this myth as well. That, along with many other false claims, demonstrate it's lack of credibility (infact, it even borrowed some elements from Adam Cutris' work and misrepresented them, and made connections which don't exist). Although, to the best of my knowledge, it is true that many founders and leaders of different radical factions do borrow their ideological basis from Syed Qutab, except they take his views to the violent extreme all of us are unfortunately familiar with by now.
EDIT: Even the term 'Al-Qaeda' is a name given by the CIA to this same organized network that didn't even exist, but I'm guessing you already know that.
EDIT2: Plus, another thing the documentary mentions, more like propogates, is the idea that it's ok to profile innocent Arabs/Muslims. I think it was mentioned in part 3 or 2? Pharses like "forcing the goverment to [paraphrasing the rest of it here since I don't feel like finding that part again] target Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism" reeks of a neo-con influence, direct or indirect, that shapes the presentation of this documentary.
Fir3start3r
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Kind of like the neo-cons who pose as conservatives when they're anything but. Traditional conservatism has nothing to do with neo-conservatism, just like violentent extreme radical factions have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood.
I can agree with that.
It's no different as you say, on the other side of the fence with the whole neo-con business and conservatives.
Every major religion or group tends to have extremism in one form or another.
I will point out however that suicide bombing tends to be dominated more by the Muslim extremist groups where terror is more their main goal than an actual political statement (minus the recent events between Hizbullah and Israel).
quote:
The documentary does make many claims which have been proven to be complete fiction, for example, an organized network of terrorist cells operating globaly. Adam Curtis' documentary, "The Power of Nightmares," which was aired on the BBC, exposes this myth as well. That, along with many other false claims, demonstrate it's lack of credibility (infact, it even borrowed some elements from Adam Cutris' work and misrepresented them, and made connections which don't exist). Although, to the best of my knowledge, it is true that many founders and leaders of different radical factions do borrow their ideological basis from Syed Qutab, except they take his views to the violent extreme all of us are unfortunately familiar with by now.
I think that's all they were really trying to say; that Syed was the seed, but like all founding thoughts that get written down, there is mis-interpretation and/or literal interpretation that the author may not have intended.
Just look at the bible or even the American Constitution!
quote:
EDIT: Even the term 'Al-Qaeda' is a name given by the CIA to this same organized network that didn't even exist, but I'm guessing you already know that.
I remember seeing a chart someone made of all the cross-connected Muslim extremist groups (I'll see if I can find it); it was quite interested how intertwined they really are.
quote:
EDIT2: Plus, another thing the documentary mentions, more like propogates, is the idea that it's ok to profile innocent Arabs/Muslims. I think it was mentioned in part 3 or 2? Pharses like "forcing the goverment to [paraphrasing the rest of it here since I don't feel like finding that part again] target Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism" reeks of a neo-con influence, direct or indirect, that shapes the presentation of this documentary.
Well it is a Western based documentary ;) but I don't think the general gist of the connections between the extremist groups gets lost.
