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August 22nd and Iran's ideology welcoming M.A.D. (pg. 2)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
however Israels possession of Nuclear weapons is just as scary as Pakistans' considering their 'reconaissance by fire' style of warfare and long list of human rights violations |
why should you be afraid? Israel has had nukes for a good part of the last century.
| quote: | In other news, the Israeli Foreign Ministry declared that it is not illegal for Israeli forces to use internationally banned cluster bombs:
I feel much safer that Israel is a liberal democracy using illegal weapons on civilians, because if they were a theocratic dictatorship that would be most immoral :p |
that article is horse . |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
Israel needs to take a good hard long look at itself, it may be suprised at what it sees. |
and i completely agree. however (slightly off topic) what exactly did israel achieve by leaving lebanon & gaza? they pull out, and the militants continue their programs of violence and antagonism.
there are two sides to this. you cant expect israel to sit back and take everything. and you know damned well that if hezbollah had the capacity to drop cluster bombs in civilian centres theyd bloody well do so. as an end in itself i might add- ie NOT firing on IDF units hiding in schools or hospitals.
so just because a state has more capability than a militia does not a priori make them more culpable. as i posted in another thread, theres a world of difference between fighting against a guerilla force in an urban environment, and loosing missiles randomly at civilian centres. |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
why should you be afraid? Israel has had nukes for a good part of the last century. |
And Pakistan since the 1980s?
| quote: | | that article is horse . |
Try this article from Human Rights Watch a US Based organisation:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/200...isrlpa13798.htm |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
there are two sides to this. you cant expect israel to sit back and take everything. and you know damned well that if hezbollah had the capacity to drop cluster bombs in civilian centres theyd bloody well do so. as an end in itself i might add- ie NOT firing on IDF units hiding in schools or hospitals.
so just because a state has more capability than a militia does not a priori make them more culpable. as i posted in another thread, theres a world of difference between fighting against a guerilla force in an urban environment, and loosing missiles randomly at civilian centres. |
I am not defending Hezbollah either, i would like to see both the leaders of Hezbollah and the IDF tried for these abhorrent Crimes Against Humanity, however unlikely that scenario is. I am more critical of the Israeli government than Hezbollah because i hold Israel to higher standards than so called "terrorist organisations", being a signatory to the Geneva Convention means you are obliged to follow the rules of war and maintain a certain level of respect for innocent civilians even if your enemy does not. I am aware that in War my idealism is not realpolitik, collatoral damage is a sad fact of every conflict, but if you are of the belief that Israel is doing everything possible to minimise civilian casualties while battling Hezbollah than you are extremely naive.
"As the full extent of Lebanon's catastrophe began to emerge yesterday, the US-based watchdog Human Rights Watch accused Israel of war crimes. "In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians ... the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accident and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hizbullah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes," it stated when releasing a study of attacks in Lebanon. Israeli forces have fired with war planes and artillery on dozens of civilian vehicles, many flying white flags," it said.
Israel has sought to justify the deaths by saying Hizbullah fighters hide among civilians to fire rockets. Human Rights Watch says it believes Hizbullah does violate the laws of war by hiding among civilians during military operations, but "the image promoted of such shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong"
Israel has lost any moral high ground it may have once had over Hezbollah in this conflict considering its modus operandi of collective punishment and callous disregard for civilian life.
Did Israel have a right to retaliate to Hezbollahs provocations? They certainly did, and the majority of Christian Lebanon would have loved to see Israel remove Hezbollah from their country. This is the reason why i am dumbfounded by Israels asinane approach of "sending a message" to Lebanon (and the middle east) by using a grossly disproportiate amount of force on the entire civilian poppulation under the pretense that they are solely targeting Hezbollah. An example would be Israels' claims that they are bombing roads and bridges to cut off the supply of arms from Syria to which i do not begrudge them for this sound strategy, but when their airforce returns to these already impassible targets to bomb the foundations again and again until there is nothing left and then continues to bomb every other bridge in the country irrespective of whether it is an area controlled by Hezbollah or not then one is only left to assume their actions are fueled by revenge, with the purpose of decimating Lebanons economy by increasing the cost of reconstruction and consequently leaving its people impoverished for decades to come. If this is not Israels aim well then it has inadvertantly achieved it and ensured that extremist fundamentalism will become rife in this former bastion for secularism and moderatism in the Middle East where its squallid refugee camps of the dispossessed become Hezbollahs recruiting grounds for generations to come.
what the has this got to do with Vanunu? :p |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
wont find any arguments from me there mate.
though i do wonder how exactly it is judged whether civilians were deliberately targeted or not. not that im doubting the veracity of the report, just that it must be a pretty difficult job. considering a terrorist can look like a civilian only seconds later (or visa versa).
either way, its a terrible catastrophe and israel should commit itself to helping the lebanese people in any way they can.
/hijack ;) |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
And Pakistan since the 1980s? |
right, but who do you think you should be more afraid of possesing those weapons? honestly.
can't argue with that. looks like they used cluster ammo. maybe Israel should have dropped more leaflets? |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
Israel needs to take a good hard long look at itself, it may be suprised at what it sees. |
Would you be more comfortable and feel less "anxioius" if Iran had a nuke? Just curious. |
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| tathi |
As i've already said with regards to Iran: "i think their regime is tyrannical and their president is a sociopathic lunatic" which sums up my position pretty well. Too many people believe that if you criticise and condemn one side you are automatically a fervent advocate of the other side :/
| quote: | Q5echno
right, but who do you think you should be more afraid of possesing those weapons? honestly. |
Honesty Pakistan. While Musharraf is in power i do not believe his secular government would be stupid enough to use nuclear weapons, he has proved himself an ally to the west against radical Islam, but if there was another coup, or if Pakistan were to become a democracy and a government hostile to the west were democratically elected that could change. Which just goes to show, as long as your dictatorship is friendly to the US, you're an 'enlightened despot' :p |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
Which just goes to show, as long as your dictatorship is friendly to the US, you're an 'enlightened despot' :p |
You can't fight all battles on all fronts - you sometimes have to make peace with some of your enemies - I think it could be considered a sort of provisional diplomacy. though, as history shown us - US had made quite a few errors in judgement over the years. To name a few:
Support of Iran in 50's
Support of Afganistan in 80's
Support of Iran in the 80's
Support of Saudis for long long time
Support of Lebanon (recently)
Support of Uzbekistan
Support of Pakistan (yet another up)
Looks like it should be a good idea to steer clear of various "Stans". At least for next few hundred years. And of course other, non-Stans that are often enthusiastic in their expressions of their deep "love" for good ole Uncle Sam. |
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| tathi |
Creating a few dictatorships in South America was also an "error"
woops! :p |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
good ole Uncle Sam. |
You mean "New Judea." Atleast that's what my brother's hardcore Zionist college buddy (who works for the CIA now) calls the US. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You mean "New Judea." Atleast that's what my brother's hardcore Zionist college buddy (who works for the CIA now) calls the US. |
Hey, Jesus will come back to the US to create a New Jerusalem there to which he will give the name of Zion. Just ask the mormons! :) |
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