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Bring Back John-Paul II (pg. 2)
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i still think its funny though- the pope was talking about islam and violence and their historical relationship, and to protest this the muslims burn down churches. |
I was thinking the same thing....... |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i still think its funny though- the pope was talking about islam and violence and their historical relationship, and to protest this the muslims burn down churches. |
I do think that's funny too. The pope quotes ancient text about the atrocities Muslims have committed. The pope then apologizes for using the quotes in his comments. Muslims then kill a nun, burn effigies, tell us the pope must now die and threaten to retaliate further. Irony, anyone? I think actions speak louder than words, and the reaction of some in the Muslim community are doing more to prove the pope right than to prove him wrong. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I was thinking the same thing. On the other hand, unlike the rest of you, I'm well aware of everything that lead up to this and built up all this anger, and am, unfortunatelyt, not surprised that it manifested the way it did, which is also ed up. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
I do think that's funny too. The pope quotes ancient text about the atrocities Muslims have committed. The pope then apologizes for using the quotes in his comments. Muslims then kill a nun, burn effigies, tell us the pope must now die and threaten to retaliate further. Irony, anyone? I think actions speak louder than words, and the reaction of some in the Muslim community are doing more to prove the pope right than to prove him wrong. |
Dude I almost the bed when I saw the report on that nun, shot 4 times?? She lived in the area 30+ years helping the poor and these animals kill her?!!?!?!?!?
This is unexcusable!!! |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I was thinking the same thing. On the other hand, unlike the rest of you, I'm well aware of everything that lead up to this and built up all this anger, and am, unfortunatelyt, not surprised that it manifested the way it did, which is also ed up. |
Z, with all respect to you and your beliefs, but why do the Moderate Muslims state that Islam is a peaceful religion, but yet a cartoon or a history lesson causes so much destruction?
I really want to know, cause I asked my girl friends father that a while back and he basically told me I did not need to know, so out of respect for him and her, I dropped it... but I ask you. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Iraq al-Qaida says pope, West are doomed
By ANNA JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 22 minutes ago
An al-Qaida-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were "doomed," as protesters raged across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.
The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.
The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."
Islam forbids drinking alcohol and requires non-Muslims to pay a head tax to safeguard their lives if conquered by Muslims. They are exempt if they convert to Islam.
In Indian-controlled Kashmir, meanwhile, shops, businesses and schools shut down in response to a strike call by the head of a hard-line Muslim separatist leader to denounce Benedict. For the third day running, people burned tires and shouted "Down with the pope."
Protests also broke out in Iraq, where angry demonstrators burned an effigy of the pope in Basra, and in Indonesia, where more than 100 people rallied in front of the heavily guarded Vatican Embassy in Jakarta, waving banners that said the "Pope is building religion on hatred."
The pope on Sunday said he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his speech last week in which he cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of Islam's Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman" and referred to spreading Islam "by the sword."
Benedict said the remarks came from a text that didn't reflect his own opinion.
"I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect," he said during his weekly appearance before pilgrims in Italy.
The statement of regret — the pope's second in two days — helped ease some tensions.
In Turkey, where outrage against Benedict's remarks had been swift, Catholic bishops decided Monday that no changes were necessary in his upcoming visit in November — his first to a Muslim country, Vatican spokesman George Marovic said.
Marovic said the trip was expected to go on as planned, and the bishops had discussed the details of a religious ceremony the pontiff is to lead in Istanbul.
However, State Minister Mehmet Aydin, who oversees the religious affairs in Turkey, said he expected Turkish authorities to cancel the visit if Benedict does not offer a full apology.
"We are expecting the authorities to unilaterally cancel this visit. The pope's coming to Turkey isn't going to foment the uniting of civilizations, but a clash of civilizations," he said.
The secretary-general of the Turkish HUKUK-DER law association submitted a request to the Justice Ministry asking that the pope be arrested upon entering Turkey.
The appeal by Fikret Karabekmez, a former legislator for the banned pro-Islamic Welfare Party, called for Benedict to be tried under several Turkish laws, among them obstruction of freedom of belief, encouraging discrimination based on religion, and inciting religious hatred.
A prosecutor in the ministry will evaluate the request and decide whether to open a case.
Angry reactions also persisted in other corners of the Muslim world, where many demanded more of an apology by the pope than Sunday's statement of regret.
"Muslims have all this while felt oppressed, and the statement by the pope saying he is sorry about the angry reaction is inadequate to calm the anger — more so because he is the highest leader of the Vatican," Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said.
More than 200 Muslims staged a sit-in at a shrine in Damascus, Syria, heeding a call by the Damascus office of Iran's spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. A statement issued by the office urged the pope to "openly and plainly apologize for his remarks."
Protesters also rallied in the city of Muzaffarabad, in the Pakistani-controlled part of Kashmir. "His apology is not sufficient because he did not say that what he said was wrong," said Uzair Ahmed of Pasban-e-Hurriyat, a Pakistani political group.
Morocco's King Mohammed VI sent a letter to the Vatican in which he implored Benedict to show "the same respect for Islam that you have for the other religions," Moroccan media reported. Morocco withdrew its ambassador to the Vatican over the weekend.
Even in China, where the government exerts tight controls over religious activities, a top religious official said Benedict had insulted the nation's Muslims.
"This has gravely hurt the feelings of the Muslims across the world, including those from China," Chen Guangyuan, president of Islamic Association of China, was quoted as saying in an interview with the Xinhua news agency.
In the Middle East, where Muslims threw firebombs at seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over the weekend, Christian leaders posted guards outside some churches.
"We are afraid," said Sonia Kobatazi, a Christian Lebanese, after Mass at the Maronite Christian St. George Cathedral in Beirut, Lebanon, where about a dozen policemen carrying automatic weapons stood guard.
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Associated Press writers Maamoun Youssef in Cairo, Aijaz Hussain in Srinigar, India, Benjamin Harvey in Istanbul, Turkey, and Slobodan Lekic in Islamabad, Pakistan, contributed to this report. |
I think I am going to church,,,, this is going to get bad before it gets good..
Can you just imagine what will happen if the Pope is arrested during his vist to turkey.... maybe he should stay in Rome. Cause I would hate for some idiots to try something and this get really bad. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I was thinking the same thing. On the other hand, unlike the rest of you, I'm well aware of everything that lead up to this and built up all this anger, and am, unfortunatelyt, not surprised that it manifested the way it did, which is also ed up. |
The improtant thing is that the Muslims were the one who crossed the line from words to action. Agree or not, the pope or anyone else can say all the crazy crap they want. However, if you use someone's words as an excuse to hurt, kill or destroy, than the onus is on you and you automatically lose a great deal of credibility and sympathy. I'm not saying one side is right and the other is wrong. I'm saying that one side said something that offended the other, and in return the other side crossed the line from words to action. Even more ironic is the action the "offended" side has taken is exactly what the instigator said they do, which caused the outrage in the first place. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
The improtant thing is that the Muslims were the one who crossed the line from words to action. Agree or not, the pope or anyone else can say all the crazy crap they want. However, if you use someone's words as an excuse to hurt, kill or destroy, than the onus is on you and you automatically lose a great deal of credibility and sympathy. I'm not saying one side is right and the other is wrong. I'm saying that one side said something that offended the other, and in return the other side crossed the line from words to action. Even more ironic is the action the "offended" side has taken is exactly what the instigator said they do, which caused the outrage in the first place. |
You misunderstood me. I'm not being an apologist of any sort here, nor am I playing devils advocate. I think their actions are despicable (the particular Muslims responsible for these attrocities), and offend me even more as a Muslim since it's quite contrary to the religion's teaching and only make the public perception of Muslims as a whole even worse than it already unfortunately is. No civilized people should resort to this brutality. But at the same time, let's not assume collective or disproportionately distributive inoccence or guilt of any particular group here. That's kind of like them assuming all Westerners are barbarians because of the various coup de atas, bombings, torture, Abu Gharib/Guantanamo type indicents, support for brutal and opressive regimes etc. You have no idea how vigoursly I defend Westerners when they suffer the same kind of prejudice, however mild or extreme (when I happen to be visting that part of the world that is, I generally don't have to listen to crap like that from Western Muslims). All I'm saying is, there's no need to generalize here. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
Z, with all respect to you and your beliefs, but why do the Moderate Muslims state that Islam is a peaceful religion, but yet a cartoon or a history lesson causes so much destruction?
I really want to know, cause I asked my girl friends father that a while back and he basically told me I did not need to know, so out of respect for him and her, I dropped it... but I ask you. |
If you want to see what I've said earlier regarding that subject and my laid back attitude in general towards stuff, check out this thread:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...hlight=cartoons
And read my response to Neo. I don't appriciate people making assumptions which have no logical connection to anything I've expressed, [EDIT] or not espressed, especially. |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
No civilized people should resort to this brutality. But at the same time, let's not assume collective or disproportionately distributive inoccence or guilt of any particular group here. That's kind of like them assuming all Westerners are barbarians because of the various coup de atas, bombings, torture, Abu Gharib/Guantanamo type indicents, support for brutal and opressive regimes etc. You have no idea how vigoursly I defend Westerners when they suffer the same kind of prejudice, however mild or extreme (when I happen to be visting that part of the world that is, I generally don't have to listen to crap like that from Western Muslims). All I'm saying is, there's no need to generalize here. |
I think the major thing I'm looking for from the Muslim population when it comes to incidents like this is for them to have a significant percentage of the population coming out against what's being done. I know you do it, which I respect, but in my experiences, you're part of a very small minority. Also, even if that minority is larger than it appears to me, it's mostly because you don't really have a large public voice like those calling for the sacking of Rome and the murder of the pope.
That's where I see the difference between the Muslims and the Westerners. You see all over the media, internet blogs, and even these boards, Westerners speaking out very critically of those in power and the incidents that you highlighted above. Here, instead of jointly getting together to burn effigies and embassies (over issues larger than cartoons, like bombings), we argue with each other, which creates a balance. In the Muslim world, it doesn't seem like this sort of dialogue occurs, and as a result, they seem to get progressively more radical. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
I think the major thing I'm looking for from the Muslim population when it comes to incidents like this is for them to have a significant percentage of the population coming out against what's being done. I know you do it, which I respect, but in my experiences, you're part of a very small minority. Also, even if that minority is larger than it appears to me, it's mostly because you don't really have a large public voice like those calling for the sacking of Rome and the murder of the pope.
That's where I see the difference between the Muslims and the Westerners. You see all over the media, internet blogs, and even these boards, Westerners speaking out very critically of those in power and the incidents that you highlighted above. Here, instead of jointly getting together to burn effigies and embassies (over issues larger than cartoons, like bombings), we argue with each other, which creates a balance. In the Muslim world, it doesn't seem like this sort of dialogue occurs, and as a result, they seem to get progressively more radical. |
It's not the case that alot of Muslims don't disagree with alot of extreme elements and their supporters participate in and not find it quite distasteful, but the Middle East is not the West. Dissenters have alot more to loose over there than just ridicule or allienation of some type or the other. Plus, it's not like there's virtual silence on their part of Muslims eigther, it just never recieves the attention it should get. Do you really think 1.2 billion people are psycotic or nutty ? (I'm just using that expression figuratively, so no need to get defensive ;)) Unfortunately their voices don't really get heard or get much publicity. Also, considering the state much of the Muslim world is in, and the misunderstanding or prejudice, however mild or extreme, Muslims in the West go through, even on a daily basis depending on where you are, makes them a little reluctant to be expressive at times. I don't know, does that make sense or help?
EDIT: Another thing I should add, given the tension that exists, especially after events like this, that doesn't exactly promote a whole lot of dialogue. I think Muslims should be more vocal, becasue in the end, it's good for everyone, and alot of misunderstanding can be avoided that way. It takes a little bit of courage to do that (not that I'm claiming to have balls of steel :p).
EDIT2: I understand how you feel, so I hope you don't take offense to anything I've said.
EDIT3: This is another reason why I feel it's important that I do vocalize my opinion (except out of just principle ofcourse), even if I don't necessarily feel like it all the time. I don't know if it's anywhere near enough though, but atleast I'm trying. It's my sincerest wish that things don't get any worse than they already are, but unfortunately I don't have much control over that :(. |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
It's not the case that alot of Muslims don't disagree with alot of extreme elements and their supporters participate in and not find it quite distasteful, but the Middle East is not the West. Dissenters have alot more to loose over there than just ridicule or allienation of some type or the other. Plus, it's not like there's virtual silence on their part of Muslims eigther, it just never recieves the attention it should get. Do you really think 1.2 billion people are psycotic or nutty ? (I'm just using that expression figuratively, so no need to get defensive ;)) Unfortunately their voices don't really get heard of get much publicity. Also, considering the state much of the Muslim world is in, and the misunderstanding or prejudice, however mild or extreme, Muslims in the West go through, even on a daily basis depending on where you are, makes them a little reluctant to be expressive at times. I don't know, does that make sense or help? |
A little, but two quick things: First, I'd think that if they were upset about the prejudice they would attempt to express why people have the wrong perception rather than polarize themselves further. Second, while I understand that the Middle East is more repressive of free speech, especially that which is critical of the governments/religion, the part that concerns me most is that a lot of this extremist speech isn't coming from the Middle East. The guy calling for the murder of the pope was in from of Westminster Cathedral. The death threats over the Danish cartoons were from within Denmark. That's the part that concerns me most, as I can see how it would be difficult for Muslims who are limited in their freedom of expression to speak out, but these people do have freedom of expression, and it's going the opposite way in a lot of instances. I would like to add, though, that I have heard statements from Muslim groups in Europe that they found the apology to be acceptable. |
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