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MPs revive Kelowna Accord for native peoples (pg. 2)
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Im sick of the government sponsored poverty that exists and seems to be sanctioned by natives themselves. |
Not just sanctioned..... demanded. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Not just sanctioned..... demanded. |
and until natives want to help themselves its a non issue.
Also I cant understand how some natives want to have their "traditional" hunting and fishing rights but then use the "white man's technology" to do so. And then want the freedom to sell said fish to the white man.
I thought the idea of traditional hunting was using traditional methods so that they could feed their family? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I thought the idea of traditional hunting was using traditional methods so that they could feed their family? |
It was, however, this bizzar mixing of cultures between the traditional and the European has resulted in natives being just as enterprising and greedy as we are (minus the work ethic, apparently). |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
its funny how liberal supporters want the conservatives to do everything within 8 months of taking power yet the liberals had 13 years and hardly did anything.
(except promise) |
how about we stick to the issue...the Kelowna accord.
This accord was negotiated over an 18 month period with aboriginal leaders and all provinces on board. All parties support the accord, except the CPC. Why? And how does the CPC explain it's reply that it was nothing more than election promise b.s., when this accord took *18 months* to negotiate? That doesn't sound like some b.s. plan whipped together at the last minute to buy votes...and if it was, why would Martin make that the focus of his post-PM efforts?
support it or not...the CPC have done little to address this issue...focusing on vote grabbing b.s. in the hopes of gaining a majority in the next election (and there's no way in hell that will happen, IMHO, even despite the shenanigans surrounding the Liberal leadership race)
exactly what HAS the CPC done since taking power? They've dropped the GST 1% (wow)...They've failed to improve accountability/transparency...they've introduced feel-good, low priority legislation like street racing...introduced legislation that quite possibly will be struck down via constitutional challenge (the reverse onus intiative for dangerous offender status hearings)...the "made in Canada" environmental plan that sets no short term goals and the meat of which is just the Bush administration's current plan...and divided the country with a rather vague plan on troop deployment overeas.
they canned this accord...canned other enviro programs...canned the court challenges program...all without suitable or well received replacements.
colour me unimpressed.
next up, which will further divide the country and the political parties...revisiting the gay marriage debate. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
how about we stick to the issue...the Kelowna accord.
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is that an admission :)
| quote: | This accord was negotiated over an 18 month period with aboriginal leaders and all provinces on board. All parties support the accord, except the CPC. Why? And how does the CPC explain it's reply that it was nothing more than election promise b.s., when this accord took *18 months* to negotiate? That doesn't sound like some b.s. plan whipped together at the last minute to buy votes...and if it was, why would Martin make that the focus of his post-PM efforts?
support it or not...the CPC have done little to address this issue...focusing on vote grabbing b.s. in the hopes of gaining a majority in the next election (and there's no way in hell that will happen, IMHO, even despite the shenanigans surrounding the Liberal leadership race
exactly what HAS the CPC done since taking power? They've dropped the GST 1% (wow)...They've failed to improve accountability/transparency...they've introduced feel-good, low priority legislation like street racing...introduced legislation that quite possibly will be struck down via constitutional challenge (the reverse onus intiative for dangerous offender status hearings)...the "made in Canada" environmental plan that sets no short term goals and the meat of which is just the Bush administration's current plan...and divided the country with a rather vague plan on troop deployment overeas. |
What happened to sticking to the issue at hand?
As i said they have followed through on election promises whether u argree with them or not. They outlined EVERYTHING that you mentioned above in their election platform except the street racing law which i dont happen to 100% agree with either.
as for the troops overseas. It was the Liberals that committed our troops there (in the current mission they are in) after a 3 hour closed door meeting last Nov. The conservatives are following through on that committment again, just as they promised to in the election.
As for the natives? If i had been in power for 8 months i dont think i would have even attempted such a huge file yet considering the messes that i would have had to clean up from the liberal era first.
Lets make one thing clear though, the ontario provincial government has no excuse for the way it has handled caledonia and deserves to be harshly punished for it in the next election (amongst other things)
why isnt mcguinty calling in the RCMP or even asking for federal help in what is a provincial matter?
| quote: | | they canned this accord...canned other enviro programs...canned the court challenges program...all without suitable or well received replacements. |
court challenges? Its dangerous to subsidize one side of social engineering while not subsidizing the other. Im personally glad that SIGs have to go it alone.
| quote: | | next up, which will further divide the country and the political parties...revisiting the gay marriage debate. |
again.. another election promise being fulfilled. He obviously has nothing to hide depsite the hidden agenda moniker because he has done what he said he would. The problem is that you just dont agree with it.
Dont worry, the motion against will not pass and that will be the end of it. |
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| ShadoWolf |
We don't need an "aboriginal plan" any more than we need an "Italian plan" or a "German plan." It's time we moved away from race-based policies; aboriginals should be treated like other human beings and not as wards of the state.
The Kelowna Accord was nothing more than an attempt to bolster support for the Lieberal Party with the corrupt chiefs. That money was never going to reach the average person. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I absolutely agree with you, however, this should not influance how we deal with natives in general. The suffering of people on the less affluent reserves (six nations definately not included) is simply disgracefull.... hell the whole reserve system is disgracefull. Personally, think the Kelowna accord is the wrong way to go. It will never be fully implemented and even if it were it likely would not be sustainable. I think the only way to help the natives acheive a better life is to abolish the reserve system once and for all. It was a well meaning social experiment but it has failed miserably do to complacency by one party and a lack of political will by the other. |
This is what happens with generations of handouts; there's no incentive to escape the system when government keeps bailing you out; it's ludicrous.
In principle, I don't agree with this at all.
In practicality, I know, from experience and living around reserves that they might as well, for the most part, be pissing it down the drain.
Oh sure, they'll get a nice community center, etc. but for the most part, the people will still have a mentality of welfare thinking.
I don't like saying it too much, being Métis myself, but that's how I feel about it.
If they could guarantee skills training and other employment / business incentives to go along with that money I might feel different.
For the most part, they don't want to work, why should they? And anyone that does try to get ahead by starting a business (god forbid), gets dragged right back down into the muck with the rest of them or gets ostracized by the clan (which I can tell you, does happen, I've met someone that happened to, but he forged on anyways and left the reserve because of it).
What the natives need is leadership, not handouts.
/rant ;) |
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| TO guy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
What the natives need is leadership, not handouts.
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Absolutley true. Do you see this happening? I don't. Well, I see the leadership possibility, but I don't see th following ... which really is the whole point of the leading. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
This is what happens with generations of handouts; there's no incentive to escape the system when government keeps bailing you out; it's ludicrous.
In principle, I don't agree with this at all.
In practicality, I know, from experience and living around reserves that they might as well, for the most part, be pissing it down the drain.
Oh sure, they'll get a nice community center, etc. but for the most part, the people will still have a mentality of welfare thinking.
I don't like saying it too much, being Métis myself, but that's how I feel about it.
If they could guarantee skills training and other employment / business incentives to go along with that money I might feel different.
For the most part, they don't want to work, why should they? And anyone that does try to get ahead by starting a business (god forbid), gets dragged right back down into the muck with the rest of them or gets ostracized by the clan (which I can tell you, does happen, I've met someone that happened to, but he forged on anyways and left the reserve because of it).
What the natives need is leadership, not handouts.
/rant ;) |
Being native and having this point of view could potentially make you a very powerful lobbyist/leader. You should seriously consider that. |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by ShadoWolf
We don't need an "aboriginal plan" any more than we need an "Italian plan" or a "German plan." It's time we moved away from race-based policies; aboriginals should be treated like other human beings and not as wards of the state.
The Kelowna Accord was nothing more than an attempt to bolster support for the Lieberal Party with the corrupt chiefs. That money was never going to reach the average person. |
your point may be valid, though it's not as simple as that, of course.
It's up for debate as to whether this type of spending is the best course of action (I still say it's better than the do-nothing, non-priority attitude of the Harper administration).
I do think this needs to stop being looked at as a Liberal plan by critics.
remember that all provincial governments were on board...Liberal and otherwise...along with the federal Bloq and NDP parties.
The only active opponent appears to be the federal Conservatives (I don't know about provincial opposition parties).
so debate the plan and the philosophy behind it, sure...just don't pin it all on Martin or the federal Liberals as there appears to be widespread support for the accord. |
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| ShadoWolf |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
your point may be valid, though it's not as simple as that, of course.
It's up for debate as to whether this type of spending is the best course of action (I still say it's better than the do-nothing, non-priority attitude of the Harper administration).
I do think this needs to stop being looked at as a Liberal plan by critics.
remember that all provincial governments were on board...Liberal and otherwise...along with the federal Bloq and NDP parties.
The only active opponent appears to be the federal Conservatives (I don't know about provincial opposition parties).
so debate the plan and the philosophy behind it, sure...just don't pin it all on Martin or the federal Liberals as there appears to be widespread support for the accord. |
No province (or "native group" for that matter) is going to say no to BILLIONS of dollars being thrown at them. That doesn't make the Accord valid. Thank God that we now have a government that's willing to do what's right - even if it's not politically expedient.
There is no "philosophy" behind the plan, it's a simple quid pro quo vote-buying scheme. The links between the corrupt chiefs and the Lieberal Party that led to the Accord are well documented. Start here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...rce_login=false
http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderp...2ba2a82&k=41781
http://www.newtfn.com/prtction
And for some real solutions:
http://www.taxpayer.ca/main/news.php?news_id=2012 |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by ShadoWolf
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Did someone call an election I'm not aware of.... why are you here?
note, this is not a commentary on your politics... I ask because I don't think I've seen a post from you since the last federal election. |
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