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Where are the feminists?? (pg. 2)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
whoa! do you believe for one second that Mohammed would have been nearly as successful at what you say if he had lived under the Roman occupation Jesus lived under? c'mon! lets be sensible here. |
Actually, Mohammad was born into a tribal pagan society where slavery and a total disrespect for women (or anything considered to be feminine) was very widespread. He also had to migrate quite a few times to escape death and persecutions because of preaching monotheism. Many of his early followers were tortured and killed. The Quraish along with other influential tribes of Mecca at the time were all interested in getting rid of him as much of their status, power, wealth, and control depended on the paganistic culture and status quo and the fact that the then idol filled Kabba which was a center for pagan pilgrimage, worship, and sacrifice (which alot of times were financial donations made to the collective owners of Mecca which included the the Quraish and many other prominent tribes). So I'd say his apparent "success" had a very low probablity. (NOTE: I didn't even mention all the wars of agression against Muslims at the time or the countless treaties broken by several pagan tribes)
[EDIT:] Note: In Islam, Jesus is considered to be a Prophet, a very important one, so I hope you don't take any of this as an attemp to undermine his importance or anything. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
wow, ih missym!
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
^^^ Because going around imposing your values on people who don't share them makes you a fascist. Just because you believe yours to be superior ones that ought to be universally accepted by everyone is no different from religious fundamentalists like the Taliban. |
oh please. culture is the social manifestation of an idea. not all ideas are equal. if one idea favours the subordination and oppression of women, and the other doesn't, theres nothing "fascist" about saying one is better than the other (in this limited context).
if one set of ideas has pushed against monarchies and made their societies flourish with democracies, whilst others are still languishing with despotic rule, then again i don't see it as fascist to say which culture i think has got it right.
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
thats such a horrible and shortsided way to rationalize what has happened to Islam.
like telling a woman who has breast cancer that she should have never examined herself. |
i totally agree. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
[EDIT:] Note: In Islam, Jesus is considered to be a Prophet, a very important one, so I hope you don't take any of this as an attemp to undermine his importance or anything. |
tsk tsk tsk
| quote: | Islam, Christianity and Judaism are patriarchal, monotheistic religions and are bound by one thing - their contempt of women!
When confronted with the issue of women's plight in Muslim countries, Muslim apologists insist that their religion has been misunderstood and that Islam actually grants women certain rights. They blame tradition and tribal societies for the low status and oppression of women.
Since Islam exerts absolute power over every aspect of Muslim society, from diet to relations between the sexes, why has it failed in fourteen centuries of its existence, to eradicate injustices against half of its adherents?
Turkey's women are the most liberated in the Muslim world. This was achieved not through Islamic reformation but through secularisation established by the founder of the modern Turkish republic Kemal Ataturk. Kemal was the product of secular education and had always admired Western culture. He pursued a program of westernisation that affected all aspects of Turkish life - women were granted the vote and veiling was prohibited. If the Turkish system were to collapse and replaced by an Islamic theocracy we can be certain that women's progress will be reversed and women will be at the mercy of the mullahs. In countries where there has been a raise in fundamentalism and reversal to strict religious law such as Pakistan, Sudan and Afghanistan women are targeted with vengeance and brutality.
Some Muslim scholars agree that Mohammed did proclaim some rights for Muslim women. For example he abolished the pre-Islamic Arabian custom of burying alive unwanted female infants. He also decreed that women could own and inherit property, and that women have the right to enjoy sex!
However, he did enshrine women's inequality and inferior status in immutable Quranic law accepted by Muslims as the infallible word of God.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those among you who fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” Sura 4:34
“...Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise.” Sura 2:228
Under Shari'a - Islamic law - a man can marry up to four wives. He can divorce his wife or wives by saying “I divorce you” three times. For a wife to obtain a divorce is usually very difficult. Muslim apologists claim that Muslim women have the right to divorce and that in Islam the mother is revered and respected. Upon divorce, fathers win custody of boys over the age of six and girls on the onset of puberty. Many women would be reluctant to divorce violent or polygynous husbands for fear of losing their children. Despite the exaltation of motherhood - Mohammed once told a follower that paradise is found at the feet of the mother - children are considered the property of the father with the mother being merely the caretaker. How is it possible for a Muslim man to respect his mother when immutable religious law proclaims women's inferiority and inadequacy?
Under the Shari'a, compensation for the murder of a woman is half the amount of that of a man. A woman's testimony in court is worth only half of a man's. Women are entitled to only half the inheritance of males; the reason given for these is that males have families to provide for. In sura 4:34 men are granted superiority and authority over women because they spend their wealth to maintain them, this implies that women are a burden on society and that their work in caring for children, household and livestock is insignificant and trivial. SOURCE:GRAPHIC ORDAINED ISLAM VIOLENCE ON WOMEN
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If you do beleive that god made men, then why if in his wisdom did god make women from the rib?? If he wanted to Men to be above women, he would of made them from the foot. If he wanted women to be over men, he would of made them from the head. No, he wanted women and men to share equal, so thats why he made them from the side or rib.....something to think about if you believe that kid of stuff. :rolleyes: |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
[EDIT:] Note: In Islam, Jesus is considered to be a Prophet, a very important one, so I hope you don't take any of this as an attemp to undermine his importance or anything. |
no not at all. i can honestly say what i know i learned from you.
kinda like alcohol and my dad;) |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh please. culture is the social manifestation of an idea. not all ideas are equal. if one idea favours the subordination and oppression of women, and the other doesn't, theres nothing "fascist" about saying one is better than the other (in this limited context).
if one set of ideas has pushed against monarchies and made their societies flourish with democracies, whilst others are still languishing with despotic rule, then again i don't see it as fascist to say which culture i think has got it right. |
You're apparently to dense to understand what I was talking about. I'm not talking about the superiority of any value system over the other, and I loathe the Wahabist manifestation of Sharia and culture far more that you ever will, for some reasons which should hopefully be obvious and others which I don't care to explain to someone like yourself.
And as for the part I bolded in your response, I never said considering your value system to be superior to another is fascist, I said imposing it on other who didn't share it was. Please pay attention next time you bother to respond. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You're apparently to dense to understand what I was talking about. I'm not talking about the superiority of any value system over the other, and I loathe the Wahabist manifestation of Sharia and culture far more that you ever will, for some reasons which should hopefully be obvious and others which I don't care to explain to someone like yourself.
And as for the part I bolded in your response, I never said considering your value system to be superior to another is fascist, I said imposing it on other who didn't share it was. Please pay attention next time you bother to respond. |
well, someone's a little cranky today! :D
define "imposing" for me. you do realise culture wars are a natural part of social evolution? hopefully you're not "to[o] dense" as well. without the pressure and influence from other cultures, many countries would continue to embrace (or be oppressed by) ty ideas. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
tsk tsk tsk
If you do beleive that god made men, then why if in his wisdom did god make women from the rib?? If he wanted to Men to be above women, he would of made them from the foot. If he wanted women to be over men, he would of made them from the head. No, he wanted women and men to share equal, so thats why he made them from the side or rib.....something to think about if you believe that kid of stuff. :rolleyes: |
Stop tugging my balls Laz, I don't care for your unenlightened conformist redneck worldview. What you quoted is Wahabism, which I already addressed an have on several other occassions. Go watch some more FOX News. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well, someone's a little cranky today! :D
define "imposing" for me. you do realise culture wars are a natural part of social evolution? hopefully you're not "to[o] dense" as well. without the pressure and influence from other cultures, many countries would continue to embrace (or be oppressed by) ty ideas. |
I get cranky when I'm constantly misrepresented and am forced to respond to arguments that have no relevance to anything I said. ;) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I get cranky when I'm constantly misrepresented and am forced to respond to arguments that have no relevance to anything I said. ;) |
well, some of us are a little ripped and might miss things from time to time on this thursday evening ;) |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Stop tugging my balls Laz, I don't care for your unenlightened conformist redneck worldview. What you quoted is Wahabism, which I already addressed an have on several other occassions. Go watch some more FOX News. |
awwe baby, come on now, I wouldn't do that with out asking for a reach around, ha ha ha
as for Fox News, yeah right, yo must have me confused with Q5 :D
as far as a red neck, huh?? Respecting women is redneck?? Seeing women as equals is redneck?? Also you know I am a hispanic causing panic and I detest rednecks and thier crappy trucks, Rebel Flag waiving, Bush Voting fat wives sitting at home.....calling me a red neck is just about like me calling you a Zionist, ha ha ha So get some sleep Z. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
If we enforce our way of life onto these cultures any more than the above then they will perceive us as trying to imperialistically impose our values onto them; when this happens the men and women from these cultures will defend their traditions adamantly. True change must come from within not from without, and the true heroins of contemporary femenism are great women like Anousheh Ansari and Irene Khan whom both were born in Islamic states and against all odds proved that they are more capable than 99.99% of all the men on the planet.
Osama is the story of a young afghani girl who's mother and grandmother is a widow, to survive the family disguises her as a boy because women cannot go outside when they're not accompanied by an adult. extremely powerful and moving, it was hte first movie to come out of Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban, and the director is incredibly talented, the cinemetography.... :eyes: 5/5stars
The Circle follows four Iranian women and tells their stories in a brutally honest and moving way 4.5/5stars |
+100%, what allot of people need to know is no matter how hard we scream, invade & kill. Change will only come from the inside.
Also, great choice of Osama, saw that a few back and really enjoyed it. Also I know its totally against Z's preception of me bieng an UnEnlightened Redneck :rolleyes: but The Wind Will Carry Us is great movie as well. |
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| Dupz |
I think the majority of people in Western society have got this issue totally wrong. The problem with women being treated like dirt is not an Islam problem, it's an Arab problem, isolated by geography.
Now, people are obviously going to spread such culture to other parts of the globe, no different to Western culture being diffused into other parts of the world.
Dont agree? Think Malaysia. A majority of people practice Islam, yet women are on par with men and are not subjected to anything worse than in any other Western society. |
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