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Holy **** (pg. 2)
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
USA ed Iraq, totally ed this country and its people.. |
I think you are mistaken. We didn't anybody, we allowed them to themselves. And this is our fault. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
I think you are mistaken. We didn't anybody, we allowed them to themselves. And this is our fault. |
Is it?
How long before they realize kicking themselves in their own ass hurts?
In the end, they're all Iraqis... |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Is it? |
In the sense that all this was foreseeable? Yes.
| quote: | How long before they realize kicking themselves in their own ass hurts?
In the end, they're all Iraqis... |
Unfortunately, religious allegiances tend to run deeper than patriotic ones. I honestly can't see any way of resolving this problem: even a split-state solution wouldn't solve the sectarian violence that we're seeing in Baghdad at the moment. This is going to be a long and messy struggle and the coaltion of governments responsible for the invasion must bear the burden of the blame for it. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
In the sense that all this was foreseeable? Yes.
Unfortunately, religious allegiances tend to run deeper than patriotic ones. I honestly can't see any way of resolving this problem: even a split-state solution wouldn't solve the sectarian violence that we're seeing in Baghdad at the moment. This is going to be a long and messy struggle and the coaltion of governments responsible for the invasion must bear the burden of the blame for it. |
I touched on this point in the other post:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=384086
Unlike our Western culture where we've tried to separate State and Church, their religious beliefs run deep and are entrenched in literally thousands of years of conflict.
How could a young Democracy such as the States even begin to understand that ideology?
The States have woken up a centuries old dragon that knows nothing of peace.
Was it wrong to have faith in that the people know what they want?
What if they don't know any different? Or worse, don't realize there IS a choice?
To me, that's the real battle. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I touched on this point in the other post:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=384086
Unlike our Western culture where we've tried to separate State and Church, their religious beliefs run deep and are entrenched in literally thousands of years of conflict.
How could a young Democracy such as the States even begin to understand that ideology?
The States have woken up a centuries old dragon that knows nothing of peace.
Was it wrong to have faith in that the people know what they want?
What if they don't know any different? Or worse, don't realize there IS a choice?
To me, that's the real battle. |
I agree with you to be honest.
I don't think the US government did understand the reality of the situation in Iraq, hence what Opus said in that thread you linked to about "ideology trumping reality". The US may have had the best of intentions going into Iraq, but optimistic naivety does not excuse manifest failure. If the US did not take ethnic divisions - and the long-term problems this may raise - into calculations then, for all the good intentions in the world, they must still shoulder the blame for what we're seeing in Iraq right now. There is nothing wrong with having faith in people, but there is most certainly something wrong with waging an expensive and bloody invasion of a country on the premise of little more than "faith" that its citizens will congenially solve whatever long-standing divisions they have that are uprooted in the process. |
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| Cyrus King |
| It will become a puppet regime of Iran. Like i said, Iran is laughing at the US right now and saying "thanks for making our job MUCH easier!!!" |
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| DJ Shibby |
So wait...
They grieve by throwing sand in their faces?
Did anyone else catch that? :stongue:
Culture and tradition and ritual are crazy things. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Shibby
So wait...
They grieve by throwing sand in their faces?
Did anyone else catch that? :stongue:
Culture and tradition and ritual are crazy things. |
I really don't understand why you're so blind when it comes to the whole Israel-Palestine/Arab issue (atleast that how your being an asscomes across), but have a fairly good grasp when it comes to other issues. :o What's the deal yo? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I touched on this point in the other post:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=384086
Unlike our Western culture where we've tried to separate State and Church, their religious beliefs run deep and are entrenched in literally thousands of years of conflict. |
Islam is only 1400 years old. :rolleyes:
And, there is no "church" or hierarchical system in Islam btw. :rolleyes:
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
How could a young Democracy such as the States even begin to understand that ideology?
The States have woken up a centuries old dragon that knows nothing of peace. |
The US understand it very well, since it's created it. Violent radical "Islamic" fundamentalism is a very new and recent concept, it barely even existed during the colonial era btw. So the "centuries old dragon" you're referring to is really a figment of your imagination.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Was it wrong to have faith in that the people know what they want? |
They never ing wanted us there to begin with.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
What if they don't know any different? Or worse, don't realize there IS a choice?
To me, that's the real battle. |
The real battle is pulling your head out of the sand and holding the state accountable for it's crimes, past and present, instead of making excuses and pretending it all just a series of unintentional accident and mistakes. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Islam is only 1400 years old. :rolleyes:
And, there is no "church" or hierarchical system in Islam btw. :rolleyes:
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I know how old it is, and that was my point.
There is no line between religion and state there, which makes it so hard to handle any basic human rights issues.
| quote: |
The US understand it very well, since it's created it. Violent radical "Islamic" fundamentalism is a very new and recent concept, it barely even existed during the colonial era btw. So the "centuries old dragon" you're referring to is really a figment of your imagination.
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The US created nothing; are you suggesting it was because of the States that Jihadism exists?? Please...
They were fighting amongst themselves WAY before the States even existed...
You are right though, the Jihadists are a new, warped spin on Islam however that doesn't preclude my argument regarding them perpetually fighting in that area of the world which was my point in the first place.
If you can find an era in which there has been an sustainable amount of peace without being under the thumb of a dictatorship, point it out...
| quote: |
They never ing wanted us there to begin with.
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Nobody ever wants anybody in their own backyard but one can't expect to get along with everyone else if all they ever want to do is keep to themselves.
They'll just have to accept in dealing with the world if they ever really want to be a part of it.
And that doesn't mean a constant agenda of trying to take over everything just so it fits their culture and not have to deal with it either. :rolleyes:
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The real battle is pulling your head out of the sand and holding the state accountable for it's crimes, past and present, instead of making excuses and pretending it all just a series of unintentional accident and mistakes. |
I NEVER said that States were innocent of anything.
In fact, it's quite ignorant to believe that the States are the ONLY ones to blame... |
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| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I really don't understand why you're so blind when it comes to the whole Israel-Palestine/Arab issue (atleast that how your being an asscomes across), but have a fairly good grasp when it comes to other issues. :o What's the deal yo? |
What are you talking about?
You obviously didn't look at the link he gave, else you would see what I'm talking about (since whatever you think I'm talking about obviously is NOT what I'm talking about, lol)...
... which was the caption on the main image. It says that those grieving for the dead throw sand on their faces. My fault for being too vague, and off-topic.
Yes, I was being literal.. well, they were. Really a silly missunderstanding, and kind of funny, since I wasn't making any statement at all on the israel-palestine/arab issue, but rather just stating that it's really interesting how different cultures are so different (in regards to grieving in this case, throwing sand in my face is not something i would think to do if a loved one died). :D
As far as the israel/muslim world issue, it's too messy, i don't really know what to think about it or how to solve it, but i imagine that with time (apparently.. a lot of time when religion is involved) it will pan out one way or another. i feel like, as you put it, as ass when i start to judge them, because i can't really put myself in their mindset or their environment.
cheers & peace |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Shibby
What are you talking about?
You obviously didn't look at the link he gave, else you would see what I'm talking about (since whatever you think I'm talking about obviously is NOT what I'm talking about, lol)...
... which was the caption on the main image. It says that those grieving for the dead throw sand on their faces. My fault for being too vague, and off-topic.
Yes, I was being literal.. well, they were. Really a silly missunderstanding, and kind of funny, since I wasn't making any statement at all on the israel-palestine/arab issue, but rather just stating that it's really interesting how different cultures are so different (in regards to grieving in this case, throwing sand in my face is not something i would think to do if a loved one died). :D
As far as the israel/muslim world issue, it's too messy, i don't really know what to think about it or how to solve it, but i imagine that with time (apparently.. a lot of time when religion is involved) it will pan out one way or another. i feel like, as you put it, as ass when i start to judge them, because i can't really put myself in their mindset or their environment.
cheers & peace |
Alright. My bad, miscommuncation and misunderstandings are extremely easy on an internet message board. 90% of communication is body language and facial expression etc. So we're cool. ;)
What link was that btw? I can't find it. :conf: |
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