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utah saints - lost vagueness (lieb main mix) (pg. 3)
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| wow.. id listen to dj valium aka axel konrad over dj sammy anyday. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
up until this thread, i'd never encountered anyone who spoke of this tune in anything but glowing terms. i wouldn't personally rate it as my absolute fave lieb work, but its general awesomenes, coupled with the near-universal love it has received, place it in a rarefied space indeed.
the tune is a beast. |
From my experience, this track isn't very high on the list for big Lieb fans, where as it tends to be gushed over by people who don't know that much Lieb. |
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| StanVoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
again i have to lol at your drawing parallels between lieb and sammy...
yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion and arguing opinion is silly but there are certain tunes (very few) that are widely considered sacrosanct by knowledgeable fans -- this is one of them.
taking a wild stab in the dark, i'd guess that people sayign this tune is overrated or "good but nothing special" have never heard it in a club or perhaps weren't even listening to trance in 2001.
hearing lieb's basslines destroy a big room at the right moment in a set is a siight you simply have to experience to understand and appreciate. |
first off - the dj sammy reference was a sarcastic point.
second - define a "knowledgeable" fan.
and we're not saying this tune is "good but nothing special", we're saying it's special, but a bit too special to be loved for eternity by some listeners.
I'd take hearing Amoebassassin - Piledriver (Grayed Out Summer Mix) over hearing Lost Vagueness in a club any day, and these tracks are both from the same era. |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No, you ing idiot. The only "fact" is that your opinion is not universally representative and neither is it objective. Now I don't see why the you have to get so aggressive when stating how good this track must be, but since you have, I have no patience for your bull.
As far as I'm concerned, Oliver Lieb has done better and the Utah Saints have done better. If we're going to be ridiculously forceful about it, I'd say the only reason you're creaming over it because you've let nostalgia go to your head. |
You're probably quite true on that :happy2:
I'm not going to suddenly change my view on the track just because its not popular to like what big DJs played to death 5 years ago. |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
From my experience, this track isn't very high on the list for big Lieb fans, where as it tends to be gushed over by people who don't know that much Lieb. |
haha - what percentage of people do you think can actively identify this, or most other tunes, they hear? to create gradations of "liebdom" among fans ranging from the "serious" to the "less serious" is so ridiculous it borders on the comical.
clearly people like jan or hamid can weigh in on an entirely different level, but you're still talking about a minuscule cohort.
have you ever been to a gig homey?
one love. |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
Lieb ID
I use L.S.G. - Blueprint when i'm the mix
my favourite all-time classic is Netherworld...
can i please have my Liebdom diploma of disctinction now? |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
haha - what percentage of people do you think can actively identify this, or most other tunes, they hear? to create gradations of "liebdom" among fans ranging from the "serious" to the "less serious" is so ridiculous it borders on the comical.
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Quite a few trance fans can ID this, especially as Tiesto has spun it a bit, notably on Magik 7. Aside from Netherworld it's probably Lieb's most known work because it was high profile when trance was hugely popular.
This track may appear popular among all the Lieb fans because it's one of the few Lieb tracks that will regularly get pimped around by a wider audience. I don't see many topics on Into Deep and yet that's probably much more sacrosanct to Lieb fans than this track.
| quote: | have you ever been to a gig homey?
one love. |
A Lieb gig? Can't say I have.
| quote: | Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd!
You're probably quite true on that :happy2:
I'm not going to suddenly change my view on the track just because its not popular to like what big DJs played to death 5 years ago. |
I'm not asking you to. What I'm asking you to do is to respect my opinion that this track is highly overrated. You don't have to agree, but there's nothing invalid with what I've said.
And hard luck- my opinion on this track has all to do with which DJs played it. You can read my review of Magik 7 if you like, and you'll see I didn't slate the release, the tracks on it or Tiesto because of their respective popularity. |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Quite a few trance fans can ID this, especially as Tiesto has spun it a bit, notably on Magik 7. Aside from Netherworld it's probably Lieb's most known work because it was high profile when trance was hugely popular.
This track may appear popular among all the Lieb fans because it's one of the few Lieb tracks that will regularly get pimped around by a wider audience. I don't see many topics on Into Deep and yet that's probably much more sacrosanct to Lieb fans than this track.
A Lieb gig? Can't say I have.
I'm not asking you to. What I'm asking you to do is to respect my opinion that this track is highly overrated. You don't have to agree, but there's nothing invalid with what I've said.
And hard luck- my opinion on this track has all to do with which DJs played it. You can read my review of Magik 7 if you like, and you'll see I didn't slate the release, the tracks on it or Tiesto because of their respective popularity. |
Yeah, i did visit your website, too bad your review of ISOS5 wasn't as objective as previous entries re: tiesto. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd!
Yeah, i did visit your website, too bad your review of ISOS5 wasn't as objective as previous entries re: tiesto. |
How so? |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
hmm well, it just lists every tune and if you like it or not.
its a compilation, there should be a flow, or a sum of the parts that you are reviewing. is the cd itself good to listen to? not that 1 track here is good, that track is bad, this is ok... you only provide information about the track (label, artist etc) but fail to really give a description why it works in its place, why it is IN its place, or how the flow is affected by placing certain tracks there (fonzerelli OTT houser, to ignite the mix after 4 tracks etc).
you failed to notice the concept of the vocal / instrumental contrast over the two discs
and brushed over the fact that people had criticised the album for poor mixing (which it was!) with a one liner "I’ve read a lot of criticism concerning the mixing of this album. It seems the quality of the music is secondary to how well the DJ has stitched it together when judging a mix compilation. As far as I’m concerned, the transitions are noticeable but perfectly acceptable, and never once do they mire the flow of the mix nor disrupt the enjoyment of the music on offer."
so you accept overlapping vocals from two different tracks in the mix?
and you listed Flow From South as a favourite track. I agree its a wicked track, but why was Disc 2 pitched at 130... when most tracks on that disc are originally pitched @ 135. It made for a really perculiar mix... something you didn't touch upon once, in your description of where each track was signed up and released.
the first 4 paragraphs descend into wittering about los angeles and name dropping BT. ISOS 3 was named Panama, ISOS 1 was inspired by Ibiza, but i don't hear "the atmosphere" of the location in those mixes.
Was he bringing the mythos of los angeles to his mix? No, he was giving a title the american market would lap up.
Seems like you were striving to be original in the review by steering away from the general consensus that - little bird saved disc 1, that the mixing was poor, that the flow was compromised by underpitching trance tracks so they fitted the house style, and actually enjoyed the tortue of hearing flow from the south at -5 in the mix!
I'm sorry i had to write this, its also just my opinion, but this is more my kind of review : http://www.trancecritic.com/modules...op=show&rid=214
it tells me whats there, what isn't and isn't afraid to skirt around the fact the thing actually sucks, without trying to find the inspiration for the release in some mythological backdrop that is only really serving a purpose for the marketing team.
:thepirate
p.s. i think you write prose pretty well though :toothless
p.s.s. research, research, research
"Another standard blend into Lost Vagueness by the Utah Saints, which- hang on a second. The Utah Saints? What are the long forgotten pin-ups of the old-skool scene doing in a Tiësto mix? Well they're being remixed by the maestro -Oliver Lieb- so it isn't as weird as it sounds. A dark, pounding beat and some very spooky vocoded vocals on the starboard bow, captain. Although many people speak highly of both Lieb in general and this mix in particular, I've never seen what the fuss is about. In fact, I was still waiting for it to develop when we move stealthily into Bass Control by Italian tech-trance figurehead Mario Piu. Another dark and banging track here, which appears to be the direction Tiësto has taken the mix for the second half. Before it has had time to get going though, the digitized wooden percussion of Tiësto's own Flight 643 creeps up on us and we're mixing out of Bass Control."
the reason the Lost Vagueness never fully grows, is because it is a "building" track. Its the basis of the next section of the mix. It works over from the push sound before it, to the darker tech-trance that will follow it.
Bass Control is indeed Mario Piu's track, but just how much input did he have in terms of originality. It is a reworking of another "brooding" lieb track. So no wonder they're mixed together. The point of the fast mixing here is the key... flow... he is moving swiftly away from the uplifting trance, and through this dark section to introduce the big money shot, Flight 643.
p.s.s.s. Tiesto was playing Stringer along with the other Dutch Dj's nearly 9-10 months before the vocal version was released. It's no surprise that its successful battering by Tiesto, judge Jules, Armin, Ferry et al caused the label to suddenly think, OMG we got a bomb on our hands here... lets get a vocal version done for the charts.
if you are gonna write each tune's history instead of comment how the compilation works as a whole, its best to get the information correct. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd!
hmm well, it just lists every tune and if you like it or not. |
If this is true it would fulfill the criticism of being "subjective", but I didn't actually say anything as "I think" or suchlike. The rest of your post doesn't actually talk about any subjective statements in the review. So basically... no, it isn't a subjective review.
| quote: | | its a compilation, there should be a flow, or a sum of the parts that you are reviewing. is the cd itself good to listen to? not that 1 track here is good, that track is bad, this is ok... you only provide information about the track (label, artist etc) but fail to really give a description why it works in its place, why it is IN its place, or how the flow is affected by placing certain tracks there (fonzerelli OTT houser, to ignite the mix after 4 tracks etc). |
There's a variety of things here. For a start, I do talk about where tracks fit into the mix. I mention how tracks take the mix into different styles, I mention how the last track works as a climactic peak etc. I even mention how the context affects the impression of the track on a couple of occasions.
| quote: | | you failed to notice the concept of the vocal / instrumental contrast over the two discs |
Wrong. Quote: "Thankfully the second disc drops the vocal obsession..." in the middle of a paragraph detailing how the the first disc relies largely on vocals.
| quote: | | and you listed Flow From South as a favourite track. I agree its a wicked track, but why was Disc 2 pitched at 130... when most tracks on that disc are originally pitched @ 135. It made for a really perculiar mix... something you didn't touch upon once, in your description of where each track was signed up and released. |
I didn't deem it particularly perculiar, because I didn't know the original BPMs of each track and on a sound level it wasn't noticable. And what the are you talking about... "where each track was signed up and released?" I mention specific labels once, a passing reference to Anjuna. I say all about release dates or anything like that. The closest you can find there is a brief line about how the mix of Tales From The South is an updated mix.
| quote: | | the first 4 paragraphs descend into wittering about los angeles and name dropping BT. ISOS 3 was named Panama, ISOS 1 was inspired by Ibiza, but i don't hear "the atmosphere" of the location in those mixes. |
No. Largely the point. The mix doesn't have anything to do with the real LA, despite the attempts to convince you otherwise- it's merely a vague connection to a chilled sunny place, which fits the style of the mix. The intro serves, as much as anything, to point out that it is really just a marketing gimmick.
| quote: | | Seems like you were striving to be original in the review by steering away from the general consensus that - little bird saved disc 1, that the mixing was poor, that the flow was compromised by underpitching trance tracks so they fitted the house style, and actually enjoyed the tortue of hearing flow from the south at -5 in the mix! |
I wasn't striving to be original, I was expressing an alternate opinion. Fact is I thought Little Bird was , for the reasons I gave, and the mixing didn't bother me that much. It certainly wasn't torture to hear a record with the drastic change of being pitched down. Christ, you must really scream when jocks rip tracks up on Ableton. Fact is, a lot of people don't notice the little flaws with the mixing, and not everyone buys it to hear a maestro DJ set. As Ishkur might say, I'd go buy a hip-hop DJ's compilation for that.
| quote: | | p.s. i think you write prose pretty well though :toothless |
Cheers. I like hearing that the most. Fair play on some of the criticisms, I'm hardly going to claim I wrote a perfect review. I simply enjoyed the mix, as a lot of people did. 7/10 is hardly a fanboy's score.
Anyway: derailment.
EDIT:
| quote: | | the reason the Lost Vagueness never fully grows, is because it is a "building" track. Its the basis of the next section of the mix. It works over from the push sound before it, to the darker tech-trance that will follow it. |
And this is exactly why I don't see the fuss about this track. With its reputation as a floor destroying ultimate classic, you'd expect more than what is essentially a DJ's tool. Yes it's good at building and progressing the mix, but that's not exactly a high concept for a track of such stature. |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: |
Cheers. I like hearing that the most. Fair play on some of the criticisms, I'm hardly going to claim I wrote a perfect review. I simply enjoyed the mix, as a lot of people did. 7/10 is hardly a fanboy's score.
Anyway: derailment. |
thats a lot higher than i gave it, considering the rough opinion around here that i am a fanboy :tongue2
you've explained yourself better in the last post, than in any of that review. While you were attempting to make points in the review... none of them become clear. Because it is just a list.
If you wanted to make those points, why didn't you just write them as you did now? It would serve the same purpose, and create a far better critical style to your writings IMO.
re: lostvagueness... i'd liken it to independent or cult films... they don't have money thrown at them, there is no marketing involved. its just a ing good movie. This track is made well, it works on the floor (had you heard it live) and does cause the destruction that its fans proclaim. That it is 'just' a building track, is just one of those things. Some tracks work, some tracks dont. There is no award winning formula to why that is the case, it just happens. This track, has cult status - unfortunately unless its banging out in your ears - its something difficult to comprehend - its immense effect.
Consider when it was made in late 2000. Trance was at an uber-peak in uplifting fairytale breakdown land. Lieb wrote a masterpiece that was deep, dark and completely against anything mainstream at the time. He did it so successfully that Dj's hammered that track to death in 2001.
I'm not saying that was the purpose he wrote it, but its something to consider, that he was also not trying to make track of the year.
Your viewpoint is like saying to me - i dont understand how people have high regard for a dj tool? Why not? if it is a good DJ tool. The high status is giving it credit for what it is, not for what you perceive it to be. Not every classic or high-regarded track has to be written or in the style of the OMG11!-seminal-breakdown-classic-1999. |
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