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Questions about Ableton. Any experts out there?
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| DJ Eddie Lee |
Ok, so maybe I haven't completely given up on DJing....But now I face a whole new set of problems just as I did when I initially learned how to DJ back in 1996. The problem is that it all seems new to me again.
So I've got mixing down and I'm starting to figure out some very basic remixing and effects. But b/c the program is so detailed I'm still left with TONS of questions. And I'm beginning to see that using a mouse and keyboard just isn't gonna cut it. Some kind of specialized unit with assigned knobs, faders, keys and buttons is essential. I think I've learned all I can using the trial and error method and at this point I need someone more experienced to teach me some of the intricacies of the software. It's truly a humbling and overwhelming experience going from traditional CDs to total on-the-fly remix control. There are so many things that I wanna try to do with ableton that I'm sure ableton can perform, but I just can't seem to get it quite right. And there's just something about DJing with Ableton that's so draining. I was able to do 6 hour sets with ease using CDs and vinyl but ableton seems to drain my mental capacity out so quickly. It's a little frustrating to be honest.
If there are any experts out there I've got a ton of questions that need to be addressed. And what's the best way to setup the mixer, imac, soundcard and CDJs so I can maximize my level of control using the imac? |
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| DJ Eddie Lee |
http://www.xone.co.uk/3d.htm
I just watched the demo videos for the Allen and Heath Xone 3D and it seems to be an absolute miracle of a product. This just answered about half the questions I had about a controller for the ableton channels. One of the biggest problems with ableton was firing off the channels without having to fumble with the mouse or search for the correct key. But the mixer itself has 8 channels all dedicated and assigned to the channels you have lined up in ableton. Amazing! Too bad this thing costs over $2500. What the hell have I gotten myself into?
I can't even imagine having to bring my imac, this mixer, cables, CDs, headphones, etc just to play a gig. Every instinct in my body is telling me to just leave it behind but it's just so much fun learning how to DJ all over again. I just spent the past 3 hours fiddling with this and it's now 445am. I'm becoming obsessed with this. Is this what Sasha went through? |
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| fr0st |
Well sasha at first did the bear minimum with ableton in his live performances, just incorporating simple things, but with time he has advanced and so has his use of live. Im sure when he started he was just beatmatching with live and maybe tossing some filters and delays in.
In anycase im more than willing to help you learn a few basics and if you would like to learn some more advanced things maybe we could work something out and meet up in person. That goes for anyone just shoot me a PM. Also those guys at dubspot have a good thing going, infact I may come in and teach a advanced ableton course or two. But we shall see how that plays out. |
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| mediocre |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Eddie Lee
...There are so many things that I wanna try to do with ableton that I'm sure ableton can perform, but I just can't seem to get it quite right. And there's just something about DJing with Ableton that's so draining. I was able to do 6 hour sets with ease using CDs and vinyl but ableton seems to drain my mental capacity out so quickly. It's a little frustrating to be honest.
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| quote: | Originally said by Sasha @ Time Off-Interview
“It feels like DJing to me now, when initially it didnt,” Sasha explains. “Initially it just felt weird and I lost my sound a lot, in the beginning it took me a good six months to sound like me again. It was almost like I had to teach myself to sound like myself - it was weird!” he laughs.
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;)
| quote: | Originally posted by fr0st
Well sasha at first did the bear minimum with ableton in his live performances, just incorporating simple things, but with time he has advanced and so has his use of live. Im sure when he started he was just beatmatching with live and maybe tossing some filters and delays in.
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well the very opposite was the case, i was _very_ surprised when i red THIS interview:
| quote: | Originally said by Sasha @ Time Off-Interview
In the beginning I really went spastic on Ableton and was doing all sorts of crazy stuff, but I found I was losing the dancefloor,” Sasha recalls. “Ive pared it down now and am really being quite conservative with it, mainly just using it like a six-channel DJ mixer. Which I think with some people who use Ableton it gets their back up really. But just because you can do all of that extra stuff doesnt necessarily mean you should do it.
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| fr0st |
| quote: | Originally posted by mediocre
;)
well the very opposite was the case, i was _very_ surprised when i red THIS interview: |
I mean did you actually go and listen to him when he first started live? I think i saw him 3 times in a row at crobar. And he used the same effects repeatedly along with using a handful of loops and samples the entire night.
Suppatrigga into filter delay with feedback on its self. He did this about a billion times and still does it you'd recognize it if you heard it.
The essential mix he did shortly after turning to ableton. Which in my opinion was one of his worst mixes ever. He used 3 break loops during the set and let each play for 20min+. I mean I love the break from Way out West's - Anything but you, but he used the damn thing for 30min.
I havent heard him live in quite awhile now, but from the mixes ive heard on the net, he is doing much more innovative things nows. Im not saying hes richie hawtin but hes doing something different... |
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| steven-neil |
| quote: | Originally posted by fr0st
I mean did you actually go and listen to him when he first started live? I think i saw him 3 times in a row at crobar. And he used the same effects repeatedly along with using a handful of loops and samples the entire night.
Suppatrigga into filter delay with feedback on its self. He did this about a billion times and still does it you'd recognize it if you heard it.
The essential mix he did shortly after turning to ableton. Which in my opinion was one of his worst mixes ever. He used 3 break loops during the set and let each play for 20min+. I mean I love the break from Way out West's - Anything but you, but he used the damn thing for 30min.
I havent heard him live in quite awhile now, but from the mixes ive heard on the net, he is doing much more innovative things nows. Im not saying hes richie hawtin but hes doing something different... |
JB,,,you know aswell as i do that sasha was at his best pre northern exposure,,,,i used to see him stuggling to get to the dj booth through a packed dancefloor with a record box in each hand...on one occasion i can remember him paying two ten year olds to carry his boxes from the club to a cab.....what im saying is john is that ' pro tools and ableton'..listen to his mixmag cd,,or listen to digweeds journeys by dj cd,,twenty years old but still thirty years ahead of their time by using just a pair of 1210's........ |
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| trancinchink |
| hey eddie, there are many different options when it comes to midi controller. of course the allen & heath is probably one of few made specifically for more djin'g purposes... either way... if you look around the market, there are ton's of midi controllers available. ableton is not just used for live performances. many people use it just for producing in general so it should be compatible to most usb/firewire controllers. so if 2500 is too much for you... there definitely should be cheaper options.. =) |
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| Jason Jollins |
I know ableton very well but I would choose to dj with cd's over ableton any day. Dj'ing with ableton just seems so fake and effortless (in the sense that you really aren't doing much physically, even when you do master it).
Another problem I see is a simple analogy of how the scene works and how ableton is continuing to take away from the true and special "dj set".
Despite what many think, being a great dj isn't what makes an artist well known. This isn't 1995, and even if it was, being a great dj is hardly what it would take to stand out on a global level.
The best known dj's aren't neccessarily the "best dj's" (although some of them are great dj's). The dj mag top 100 dj poll is a joke which many are starting to realize, especially after this years poll (and it will be worse next year now that control of the dj mag top 100 was just sold to the highest bidder). Dj's that stand out are the dj's who have the best marketing / pr power (although i'm not taking away from the fact that a lot of the big names deserve to be where they are and are great artists and have done A LOT for this scene, including the sasha's, the digweeds, the tiesto's, and oakenfolds, the paul van dyk's, etc... who have done so much to help create what we have today).
In basketball or most other sports, the best player stands out as the best. There is no disputing that Michael Jordan was the best in basketball during his time, he stood out as the best player time and time again, anyone who watched a Chicago Bulls game could see this. In dj'ing, you can't judge who is the best dj. Dj'ing is an art, it's not a sport, comparing dj's is like going to a gallery and comparing painters. Many of the worlds best dj's are completely unknown and will remain that way, unless someone with money and connections comes along and builds this artist with a calculated stratigic global plan and spends a lot of money on marketing this artist.
Artists in general get big either through an already established dj / agency introducing and supporting them in many aspects OR by an artist releasing amazing productions on a continuous basis (such as a james holden) where there productions become huge globally and people come out to see this artist to hear the man behind the music.
In turn, what you have are great producers touring the world as djs while great dj's are playing in there house or the local lounge in there city. Producing is completely different from dj'ing, therefore, being a great producer does not equal great dj.
Ok so back to ableton...
Before ableton there were many great producers who wouldn't go on tour as a dj because they didn't know how to dj. Or, they would go on a world tour, and everyone would realize that this said producer is a bad dj and this would lead to them just staying in the studio (or learning how to dj and eventually tour later in there career).
With ableton, now you have every producer learning ableton (and in many cases making premixed sets in ableton, showing up to there gigs, turning on the computer, pressing play, and pretending that they are actually doing something when all they are actually doing is playing a premixed dj set). This in my opinion is the equivalent to a singer who lip-sync's.
Anyway, this is what I have against dj'ing with ableton. It continues the trend of leaving behind the true dj and supports the "if you want to be heard as a dj then you must become a producer and release a continuous string of great productions, or have that one big hit" theory.
With that said, within the next few years I can definitely see "the laptop dj" being the norm and cd's joining the dusty shelves right next to the precious vinyl.
And one last thing. Sasha is a genious imo for continuing to push trends and for the way he uses ableton in the way it should be used.
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| steven-neil |
| Dj magazine is a piss poor magazine and the only reason that the few people buy it is because it comes out on a different day from mixmag...the dj polls are a joke because theyre being voted for by children.... |
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| mediocre |
| quote: | Originally posted by fr0st
I mean did you actually go and listen to him when he first started live? I think i saw him 3 times in a row at crobar. And he used the same effects repeatedly along with using a handful of loops and samples the entire night.
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thats what i meant i think... and also what he said.
from the point on when he dj'ed with laptop, his work _immidietly_ changed dramatically!!! any of his early laptop sets did sound totally NOT like his cd/vinyl sets before at all.
he totally did not need any time live on stage where he had to get used to the effects and the software itself, the creators of "live!" from ableton overhere in berlin did show him already every single bit of the software. so by the very 1st gig he had with ableton, he already knew the programm like no other ;)
thats why (like what he said about himself and you about his 05 EM)
he was totally nuts about putting effects into every single track he "spun" etc.
however, he needed getting used to find his style again to match the flow he had before. with his vinyls/cds...
but compared to now, if u listen to his sets... they sound like they could be easily done with some cdjs too. a few loops @ outgoing tracks... a few echos @ incoming tracks... thats it almost. i like it better like it is now, the flow is just more driving and dancefloor suited.
the '05 EM from him however was ok too, as a demonstration for what is possible with ableton, a promo mix for our guys in berlin here lol but not really more except for nice listening at home. but on the dancefloor it would be pretty disappointing i guess... |
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| djinnom |
if you are getting into ableton, start slow. Get yourself a BCR and go from there. $99 midi controller is all you need. I still have plenty of knobs I have that are unassigned. I'm still fiddling with effects and how to incorporate them properly into a sound.
In any event, everyone who says that djing with ableton is for amateurs...well, you don't know what you are talkin about. It can and does do 1000's of things you simply cannot do on a set of decks. Period. The creative possibilities are endless.
I remember hearing sasha take a chord, then use the tranposer to create a bassline using 2 knobs on the fly. He'd then fiddle with that bassline and change it up, almost like playing a synth live. It was crazy.
I guess if you are into mixing 2 tracks into each other all night and would rather spend the little time between tracks beatmatching...well, then ableton simply isnt for you. |
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