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What was the last great Russian leader since 1917? (pg. 3)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
I wish you'd start verifying your facts. This is grossly incorrect. No more than 2 million perished in Stalin's camps in 25+ years while under Hitler over 5 million Jews (and not counting others) perished in less than 10 years.
There are no such sources. There is no verifiable and confirmable proof that is true.
Yeah, except that you're missing a key point:
Hitler lost.
Stalin won. |
No such sources? Pffft. You're wrong. Americans, Churchill even Soviet intelligence sources knew. I own two World War II history books that state the same. Alll referenced. You're too Soviet. I know there are so-called "confirmed" reports to contradict this (just like with almost everything, all you need is someone's disagreement and it becomes a fact), but even Russian GRU service in their famous agents brochure I saw on Russian TV gave a brief story about the Soviet spy's biography (forgot the name), detailing how in December 1940 he told Stalin that Hitler was going to attack.
I know Hitler lost. Winners write history. If Hitler would have won, Stalin today would be portrayed as teh greater evil.
And I dont believe your story that only 2 million people died in Soviet concentration camps. In suburbs of Moscow few years back they digged up a former government land on which it is estimated that 20,000 people were shot dead alone. Even Russian government admitted this. Even 2 million is a huge number. It was a terrible era. Stalin killed left and right, and it is almost impossible to verify exactly how many people he killed, because there was not many people to write down the numbers and live to telll about it.
Stop defending the evil communist regime! :whip: |
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| Aquadyne |
| quote: | No such sources? Pffft. You're wrong. Americans, Churchill even Soviet intelligence sources knew. I own two World War II history books that state the same. Alll referenced. You're too Soviet. I know there are so-called "confirmed" reports to contradict this (just like with almost everything, all you need is someone's disagreement and it becomes a fact), but even Russian GRU service in their famous agents brochure I saw on Russian TV gave a brief story about the Soviet spy's biography (forgot the name), detailing how in December 1940 he told Stalin that Hitler was going to attack.
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Oh never mind, I misread your argument. I thought you were going to spin me the Suvorov yarn again about the Soviets planning to attack Germany first.
| quote: |
And I dont believe your story that only 2 million people died in Soviet concentration camps. In suburbs of Moscow few years back they digged up a former government land on which it is estimated that 20,000 people were shot dead alone. Even Russian government admitted this. Even 2 million is a huge number. It was a terrible era. Stalin killed left and right, and it is almost impossible to verify exactly how many people he killed, because there was not many people to write down the numbers and live to telll about it. |
Christ, just google it. I didn't remember the exact number but I knew it was around 1-2 million people that perished in Gulags. Wikipedia said 2 million so I went with a larger number. Even so, the number is at least twice as small as Hitler's if not 3 if we factor in gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and others that died in Nazi camps.
Furthermore, your statement directly compared Soviet concentration camps to Nazi camps, not mass executions outside of camps. But trust me, you wouldnt want to compare those either. The four Einsatzkommando groups butchered far more people in the field on Eastern Front than the NKVD ever could.
| quote: | | Stop defending the evil communist regime! |
I am merely pointing out your incorrect "facts" and the flaws in your arguments. I'm sorry if that constitutes "defending" the "evil" Soviet regime in your eyes. At least I dont bend the facts and misquote numbers to bolster my arguments. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
Christ, just google it. I didn't remember the exact number but I knew it was around 1-2 million people that perished in Gulags. Wikipedia said 2 million so I went with a larger number. Even so, the number is at least twice as small as Hitler's if not 3 if we factor in gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and others that died in Nazi camps.
Furthermore, your statement directly compared Soviet concentration camps to Nazi camps, not mass executions outside of camps. But trust me, you wouldnt want to compare those either. The four Einsatzkommando groups butchered far more people in the field on Eastern Front than the NKVD ever could.
I am merely pointing out your incorrect "facts" and the flaws in your arguments. I'm sorry if that constitutes "defending" the "evil" Soviet regime in your eyes. At least I dont bend the facts and misquote numbers to bolster my arguments. |
There is no solid evidence out there from either side to know exactly how many people died from communist crimes. Stalin and his successors hid it very well, and only the bones speak for themselves. Only G-d knows how many undiscovered mass graves are there across the former Soviet Union. Just like its hard to find Stalin's signature ordering the mass murder of these people, though we know he ordered it for others to carry out.
Was there international inspectors of sorts to visit the sites, count the people, check out the mass murder sites? You think Stalin would go around bragging about how many people he killed? What we know of World War II deaths and Hitler's crimes is because both Alllies and Soviets were happy to expose the crimes of Nazis. Especially the Soviets wanted to portray themselves as good and make Nazis look extremely evil. The logic is very simple.
The low estimate of 2 million is far from truth. Members of my great-grandparents family were seized in the middle of the night and never seen again. We dont know where their bones lie. THEIR NAMES NEVER APPPEARED ON ANY CONCENTRATION CAMPS LISTS. So there you go. There's at least 5 people who are "missing". Only 2 people have survived from my extended Cossack family from communist purges and they were forced to leave their native Kuban lands, roots, and move elsewhere.
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| Capitalizt |
2 million? More than that died in Stalin's orchestrated famines ALONE.
When you throw in the gulag system, the number of deaths easily exceeds 10 million, and is more likely 2-3X that number.
Here is some recommended reading for you (Aquadyne):
#1.
#2.
#3. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
But he was a lefty so all is forgiven by many.
Viva la revolution!
As Stalin often said, "Workers of the world...DIE...err...UNITE!" |
LOL, I can actually picture Stalin saying that :D. |
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| Aquadyne |
| quote: | | There is no solid evidence out there from either side to know exactly how many people died from communist crimes. Stalin and his successors hid it very well, and only the bones speak for themselves. Only G-d knows how many undiscovered mass graves are there across the former Soviet Union. Just like its hard to find Stalin's signature ordering the mass murder of these people, though we know he ordered it for others to carry out. |
From Wikipedia
The total deaths shown by the declassified archives in the GULAG from 1931 to 1953 amount to about 1 million in "corrective labor camps." Another archival document contains the number of roughly 1.6 million deaths in both "corrective labor camps" and "corrective labor colonies" during the years 1930-1956 (figures for colonies are included from 1935 onwards). These figures include deaths of political and common prisoners, but they do not include executions of camp inmates that occurred during various waves of terror. The majority of these deaths occurred during World War II when conditions in the USSR deteriorated due to the war with Germany. After the war, the death rate for prisoners dropped sharply. [2]
There's plenty of archival evidence to estimate how many have died in the Gulags.
| quote: | | Was there international inspectors of sorts to visit the sites, count the people, check out the mass murder sites? You think Stalin would go around bragging about how many people he killed? What we know of World War II deaths and Hitler's crimes is because both Alllies and Soviets were happy to expose the crimes of Nazis. Especially the Soviets wanted to portray themselves as good and make Nazis look extremely evil. The logic is very simple. |
Oh, were there inspectors for Nazi camps? Did Hitler go bragging about how many he had killed? The information that constituted the bulk of evidence for the formation of Holocaust estimates was Nazi documents. Much like the formulation of Gulag death estimates was constituted by declassified Soviet archival documents.
Yes, the logic is indeed quite simple. You should utilize and stop applying a double standard to both sides.
| quote: | | The low estimate of 2 million is far from truth. Members of my great-grandparents family were seized in the middle of the night and never seen again. We dont know where their bones lie. THEIR NAMES NEVER APPPEARED ON ANY CONCENTRATION CAMPS LISTS. So there you go. There's at least 5 people who are "missing". Only 2 people have survived from my extended Cossack family from communist purges and they were forced to leave their native Kuban lands, roots, and move elsewhere. |
I'll let you in on a little secret. In debate, anecdotal evidence is worthless unless you are trying to emotionally sway the audience or your opponent. You will be dissapointed to hear that I don't feel an iota of pity for your family, regardless of how many letters you capitalize to emphasize it.
By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
I'll let you in on a little secret. In debate, anecdotal evidence is worthless unless you are trying to emotionally sway the audience or your opponent. You will be dissapointed to hear that I don't feel an iota of pity for your family, regardless of how many letters you capitalize to emphasize it. MY GREAT-GRANDPARENTS FOUGHT AGAINST NAZIS, MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER DIED IN THE BATTLE OF NOVORISSIYSK.
By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis. |
I get it. You are just trying to look cool here, but its not going to work this time. I dont have the stamped documents approved by Soviet government saying my great-grandfather and his family disapppeared.
Stalin had no proof. He was a complete lunatic, and didnt even trust doctors. He orchestrated enoough trials that were obviously backed by no evidence - thats why Krushchev denounced Stalin afterwards. So there you go. No point in arguing you. I know for sure that the deaths from concentration camps, ethnic removals, famines caused by collectivization, communist party show-trials, great purge, and other murders amount to at least 20 million deaths of innocent people. Dont you remember the deportations of Crimean Tatars and Chechens, the ENTIRE populations? AND YOU THINK the whole population supported Germans??? ALL ARE GUILTY? Man, you are starting to get on my nerves. Plus the massacres of Abkhazian, Ossetian, Georgian, Ukrainian peoples, and as well as Stalin's campaigns at scorched-earth elimination of peasant unrest in Orenburg, Orel regions where many people died. The list of communist crimes is endless. There's no way by any means he was a great leader.
Look at Russia today - still partly Stalinist, many people like ones on here are who voted for Stalin not shy to declare that Stalin was the best leader. Yet at the same time they have dumb double-standards at criticizing "lack of democracy" in Russia today. Thats ed up. The ones who survived the purges coontinued on with the mentality of Stalin. And much of the communists today in Russia miss Stalin. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis. |
People like you are real scum, you have offended me with that statement. My great-grandfather died in the Battle of Novorossiysk fighting AGAINST the fascists.
Wikipedia:
Kuban Cossacks on Victory Parade, Red Square, June 24 1945
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KubanCossacks2.jpg
| quote: |
Cossacks in World War II
When the war broke out the Cossacks found themselves on both sides of the conflict. Most fought for the Soviet Union; however, some chose to settle old scores by collaborating with the Germans, especially after the Soviet Union's initial series of defeats, including the loss of much of the army of Ivan Kononov, a former Soviet major who defected to the Germans on the first day of war with some of his 436th regiment, and served around the German-occupied city of Mogilev, guarding lines of communications against Soviet partisans.
In the summer of 1942 the German armies entered territories inhabited by the Cossacks. There in the open steppe resistance was futile, but nevertheless many, despite their hatred of Communism, refused to collaborate with the invaders of their country. Whilst collaboration was inevitable, most of the leaders were former Tsarist officers who wanted to avenge their defeat by the Communists. On some occasions relatives separated by the Russian Civil War met each other again on different sides of the conflict and killed ruthlessly.
During the Battle of Stalingrad Cossacks were able to fully justify their reincarnation in 1936. Attacks, some led by the legendary Semyon Budenny, were able to keep the Germans from entering the Caucausus, where particularly the Terek and the Kuban Cossacks were able to prevent the Germans from taking the mountains.
Failing to overcome the Cossacks by their useless propaganda about an independent Cossack state, the Germans turned their attention to the indigenous mountain dwellers of the Caucasus. This violent ethnic instability was ended only when the Soviet Union deported entire populations of Karachevs, Balkars, Ingush and Chechens and the Cossacks were once again able to live in their native land.
From 1943 the Cossacks were kept mostly in the southern part of the front, where their use in reconnaissance and logistics proved invaluable. Many went on through Romania and into the Balkans during the final stages of the war.
For the collaborators their options were thin. It should be pointed out that most of the collaborators, who some say numbered over 250,000 (although more realistic current figures claim the true number was not even a third of that) were the Don Cossacks, who, formerly the largest and strongest host, suffered the worst under Soviet collectivization policies. Kuban and Terek Cossacks, on the other hand, fought almost exclusively for the Red Army, and even in most desperate situations their heroism was evident. Being the largest Red Army Cossack host, the Kuban Cossacks in 1945 triumphantly marched on Red Square in the famous Victory Parade.
Many of the collaborators fled the Soviet advance (often chased by Soviet Cossacks) but under Soviet-Allied agreements thousands of them were handed back to the USSR. Surprisingly, following the death of Stalin, large numbers of the repatriated were allowed to return to their native lands, under a promise of secrecy. Only after 1991, with the collapse of the Communist regime in the USSR, could they openly mourn the lost members of their communities.
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| Aquadyne |
| quote: | 2 million? More than that died in Stalin's orchestrated famines ALONE.
When you throw in the gulag system, the number of deaths easily exceeds 10 million, and is more likely 2-3X that number.
Here is some recommended reading for you (Aquadyne): |
The argument was about German vs. Soviet concentration camps, not the Ukrainian famine. Reading comprehension is a good thing, get with the program. Furthermore, it is still debated whether the Ukrainian famines were intentional or unintentional.
| quote: | | I get it. You are just trying to look cool here, but its not going to work this time. I dont have the stamped documents approved by Soviet government saying my great-grandfather and his family disapppeared. |
I'm not even sure what the purpose of this is. I'm just telling you that you can stop bawling your eyes out in front of me. Your family and their problems are meaningless to me, so you can stop bringing them up.
| quote: | | Stalin had no proof. He was a complete lunatic, and didnt even trust doctors. He orchestrated enoough trials that were obviously backed by no evidence - thats why Krushchev denounced Stalin afterwards. So there you go. No point in arguing you. I know for sure that the deaths from concentration camps, ethnic removals, famines caused by collectivization, communist party show-trials, great purge, and other murders amount to at least 20 million deaths of innocent people. Dont you remember the deportations of Crimean Tatars and Chechens, the ENTIRE populations? AND YOU THINK the whole population supported Germans??? ALL ARE GUILTY? Man, you are starting to get on my nerves. Plus the massacres of Abkhazian, Ossetian, Georgian, Ukrainian peoples, and as well as Stalin's campaigns at scorched-earth elimination of peasant unrest in Orenburg, Orel regions where many people died. The list of communist crimes is endless. There's no way by any means he was a great leader. |
I dont argue that. Your original claim compared Stalin to Hitler and then compared their respective body counts in their respective concentration camp systems. You lied about the number and I called you on it. Now you're changing the scope of the argument in order to backpedal and starting to include collectivization, famine, ethnic removals and a partridge in a pear tree into the mix in order to inflate the number as much as possible.
So I don't really see what you are trying to argue here. That your people were innocent? They fought with the White Army against the Red Army in the Civil War and then some of them collaborated with Nazis. I don't know why you thought that someone like Stalin would give you a free pass for betraying his country twice, obviously your people were a volatile and an unpredicatble, as well as dangerous element.
What is exactly your definition of a great leader?
| quote: | People like you are real scum, you have offended me with that statement. My great-grandfather died in the Battle of Novorossiysk fighting AGAINST the fascists.
Wikipedia: |
Oh Jesus, again with the ing Novorossiysk. You can get over now over that pissant battle by now. You have my permission. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Russian Liberation Army (Russian: Russkaya Osvoboditel'naya Armiya Русская Освободительная Армия, abbreviated in Cyrillic as POA, in Latin as ROA, also known as the Vlasov army) was a group of volunteer Russian forces allied with Nazi Germany during World War II.
The ROA was organized by former Red Army general Andrey Vlasov, who tried to unite all Russians in opposing the regime of Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin. Amidst the volunteers were Soviet prisoners of war, eastern workers (Ostarbeiter), and Russian White emigrés (some of whom were veterans of the anticommunist White Army during the Russian Civil War). On 14 November 1944 it was officially renamed the Armed Forces of the Committee for the Liberation of the Russian Peoples (VS-KONR). |
More Here |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | | In 1942, Novorossiysk was occupied by the Wehrmacht, but a small unit of Soviet sailors defended one part of the town for 225 days, until it was liberated by the Red Army on September 16, 1943. Heroic defense by the Soviet sailors retained possession of the city's bay, which prevented the Germans from using the port for supply shipments. Novorossiysk was awarded the title Hero City in 1973. |
Was your grandfather a sailor or red army soldier? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aquadyne
The argument was about German vs. Soviet concentration camps, not the Ukrainian famine. Reading comprehension is a good thing, get with the program. Furthermore, it is still debated whether the Ukrainian famines were intentional or unintentional.
I'm not even sure what the purpose of this is. I'm just telling you that you can stop bawling your eyes out in front of me. Your family and their problems are meaningless to me, so you can stop bringing them up.
I dont argue that. Your original claim compared Stalin to Hitler and then compared their respective body counts in their respective concentration camp systems. You lied about the number and I called you on it. Now you're changing the scope of the argument in order to backpedal and starting to include collectivization, famine, ethnic removals and a partridge in a pear tree into the mix in order to inflate the number as much as possible.
So I don't really see what you are trying to argue here. That your people were innocent? They fought with the White Army against the Red Army in the Civil War and then some of them collaborated with Nazis. I don't know why you thought that someone like Stalin would give you a free pass for betraying his country twice, obviously your people were a volatile and an unpredicatble, as well as dangerous element.
What is exactly your definition of a great leader?
Oh Jesus, again with the ing Novorossiysk. You can get over now over that pissant battle by now. You have my permission. |
No offense, but you've wasted your life with obtaining your dimploma in WW2-related issues. You were fed some information from sources that dont know themselves about the actual extent of the terror. I said I BELIEVE 20 million people died. You say 2 million. Those 2 million are hard evidence. Communists hid their crimes when they could, the number is greater. I know because my family members were not included in the purges (the "official" documents). Why? Because often times communists would NOT do paperwork on every seized person suspected of being anti-communist. They would be rounded up, driven away, blidnfolded, shot and buried somewhere far away. Easy as that. No papertrail, no proper trial, no evidence. I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens. The ones in the camps were mainly political, religious prisoners to be made examples of. There was anywhere up to a thousand concentration camps all over the country. Some of them were later converted to civilian uses.
Seriously, stop denying. The truth is, noone knows exactly how many people perished but I swear its much greater than 2 million. 2 million is a slap in the face to the millions of citizens who suffered under Stalin, and communism in particular. Plus those 2 million (the LEAST confirmed number) is only a SMALL portion of all the communist crimes against innocent people. |
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