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harmonic mixing confusion (pg. 2)
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by agentdansmith
That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off. |
Yep, exactly - it's a difference of 2%.
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
however a lot of times the semitones are so minute that most people won't hear the difference. |
You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc). A semitone is actually about 6% in terms of a pitch difference - way more than would sound ok mixed together.
So with your tracks do you actually write "Bbm/Bm" for example for a track that's between 2 keys? Not a bad system I suppose, although when you get onto compatible keys (Bm goes nicely with Gbm for example), it could get complicated (i.e. you'd need to remember that Bbm/Bm goes with Fm/Gbm, not Gbm/Gm etc)
I agree having to break out a bit of maths isn't ideal, although at the end of the day it is simply a matter of looking at the numbers and seeing if they're within 2 of each other... and essentially at the end of the day most tracks you're mixing within a genre will be quite close to each other so you don't need to worry about it.
In light of this thread I have actually decided I might move to marking the tempos on my loops rather than the offset, just so that it matches a system of writing tempos on tunes (not something I do at the moment but I suspect I think I should start!), but either way I'll still be checking that the tempos are within 2-3 BPM of each other - I personally feel that's the best way around it for me.
Simple solution: timestretch all of your tracks to the same tempo and retune them to the same key haha, or just use Ableton and do it all in there... but I do like my hardware. |
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| agentdansmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc). A semitone is actually about 6% in terms of a pitch difference - way more than would sound ok mixed together.
So with your tracks do you actually write "Bbm/Bm" for example for a track that's between 2 keys? Not a bad system I suppose, although when you get onto compatible keys (Bm goes nicely with Gbm for example), it could get complicated (i.e. you'd need to remember that Bbm/Bm goes with Fm/Gbm, not Gbm/Gm etc)
I agree having to break out a bit of maths isn't ideal, although at the end of the day it is simply a matter of looking at the numbers and seeing if they're within 2 of each other... and essentially at the end of the day most tracks you're mixing within a genre will be quite close to each other so you don't need to worry about it.
In light of this thread I have actually decided I might move to marking the tempos on my loops rather than the offset, just so that it matches a system of writing tempos on tunes (not something I do at the moment but I suspect I think I should start!), but either way I'll still be checking that the tempos are within 2-3 BPM of each other - I personally feel that's the best way around it for me.
Simple solution: timestretch all of your tracks to the same tempo and retune them to the same key haha, or just use Ableton and do it all in there... but I do like my hardware. |
I've noticed that when talking keys, you refer to the actual key notes. I just remember my tunes by their keycode for use on the Camelot System. Do you not use this?
I've got Ableton, and have thought about doing this but didn't know whether I would be losing any sound quality in doing so.
Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out? |
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| nefardec |
I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton.
I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically.
For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key.
Some synaesthesiac composers such as Rimsky-Kosakov & Alexander Scriabin related musical keys to color:
Rimsky-Korsakov: (this is closer to what I see)
B major gloomy, dark blue with steel shine
Bb major darkish
A major clear, pink
Ab major greysh-vioket
G major brownish-gold, light
F# major green, clear (color of greenery)
F major green, clear (color of greenery)
E major blue, sapphire, bright
Eb major dark, gloomy, grey-bluish
D major daylight, yellowish, royal
Db major darkish, warm
C major white
Scriabin:
C# Purple
F# Bright Blue/Violet
B Blue
E Sky Blue
A Green
D Yellow
G Orange
C Red
F Deep Red
Bb Rose/Steel
Eb Flesh
Ab Violet
Db Purple (same as C#)
Gb Bright Blue/Violet (same as F#) |
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| Rebel Brown |
| quote: | Originally posted by agentdansmith
Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out? |
If you do end up using Ableton to re-pitch it, I'd use complex mode when warping instead of Beats, as I find Beats tends to make the bassline sound warbled. |
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| nefardec |
| Yeah if you go the ableton route for editing tracks, use complex mode and make sure all your tracks are set to High Quality playback. (there is a little toggle on the clip display) |
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| restrict |
well, I'm using vinyl and just vinyl, I have a ty mixer right now so pitch correct is out of the question, I'm guessing my best bet is to find harmonic matches that have 'close' bpm relativity. The +2% thing really helps, thank you :)
Jer |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by agentdansmith
I've noticed that when talking keys, you refer to the actual key notes. I just remember my tunes by their keycode for use on the Camelot System. Do you not use this?
I've got Ableton, and have thought about doing this but didn't know whether I would be losing any sound quality in doing so.
Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out? |
Yeah I use the keys cos I already know which ones go with which from music theory, plus there are some key combinations you can do in certain cases which the Camelot system doesn't account for... but it's an equally valid system to use.
I was actually joking about timestretching all of your tracks, it's not something I'd do myself (as beatmatching is part of the fun of it for me) although I know some people do. But if you are going to do it, Ableton's complex timestretching algorithms are the best real time algorithms I've heard and with it all set to high quality (as suggested above), you'll still lose a bit of quality but it's not bad at all.
If you're really serious about it sounding as good as possible, the offline version (i.e. you sit and leave it to process a whole track, rather than it working it out as it plays it back, like the Ableton one does) of the Waves Soundshifter plugin is pretty much perfect. It really does make it sound like that the track was made in that key in the first place, but takes about 5 minutes to process a track so would take a fair while to do your whole collection! Plus it costs about £800 (as part of the Transform plugin bundle) |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton.
I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically.
For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key.
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I'm not advocating people retuning all of their tunes to the same key, cos then you'd get no modulation throughout a set and it'd sound really dull. But in response to what you said, if a DJ plays a track at any speed other than 0%, they've changed the key to a certain extent (not necessarily by a whole key, but the frequency of the tonic is different, which at the end of the day is the only difference between two keys of the same type: major or minor etc) - if they play the track at +4% then it's then nearer to the next key up than the key it was written in, so does that change the feeling of the song? Not really imo. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc). |
yeah, whoops, i meant quartertone. sorry, i haven't used proper music terms since jazz band in high school. yeah, i've had somewhat of a problem with compatible keys, but like i said often it's not a problem. perhaps that's a moment where i mix out of the outros where there's not a whole lot going on melodically.. it depends. most of the time it'll be close enough, and almost %100 of the time the audience can't tell the difference.
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton.
I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically.
For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key.
Some synaesthesiac composers such as Rimsky-Kosakov & Alexander Scriabin related musical keys to color:
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i respect your opinion but i think this is nonsense *as a dj*. it's like you're implying that all djs should only play tunes at %0.0 pitch because that's the way the producers intended it to be played. as a dj you have no choice but to change the key and/or the tempo of the tune your playing. it's part of beatmatching. I'm a big fan of E dorian but i don't give a flying if it's pitched up to Gb dorian. and not everyone is a synaesthesiac.. the last thing i'm worried about is whether my transition in C# makes the crowd think about purple.
your putting the key on a pedestal, man. :p |
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| agentdansmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
I was actually joking about timestretching all of your tracks, it's not something I'd do myself (as beatmatching is part of the fun of it for me) although I know some people do. But if you are going to do it, Ableton's complex timestretching algorithms are the best real time algorithms I've heard and with it all set to high quality (as suggested above), you'll still lose a bit of quality but it's not bad at all.
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Ahh yes, ignore me then - I forgot that that would mean that there would be no need to beatmatch anymore - doh!
And like you said, where's the fun in that?!?!
I started to use Ableton 5 about 18 months ago and did a few mixes with it, and although they were pretty good mixes with some interesting uses of loops and effects that I would never be able to do with my CDJ's - it was a very boring experience and I quickly wne back to manually beatmatching me tunes.
You just can't beat the hands on approach! |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by restrict
well, I'm using vinyl and just vinyl, I have a ty mixer right now so pitch correct is out of the question, I'm guessing my best bet is to find harmonic matches that have 'close' bpm relativity. The +2% thing really helps, thank you :)
Jer |
if you alter a tune by +/-6% you have altered the key one semitone (i think). thus, if theres less than 3% difference between both tunes then youre fine.
i mix exclusively in key, but i allow myself dodgy mixes if a tune is more than 3% out. too many tunes to remember how they all fit together. youve gotta cut yourself some slack!! :) i just try and remember which tunes are a lot slower/faster so i'll know that a track is actually more likely to be in 7A than 12A when i mix it as it needs to be sped up a lot. |
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| sleepydragon |
| i dont look into any of this i just know what the original key of tracks are. |
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