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Please Help Me Make A Proper Trance Kick Drum (pg. 2)
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| DJ Shibby |
A good kick is a piece of art in itself :D
Start out with some 909 samples and play around with them... it's really not just about making a good kick, but also about making a good kick for your specific track. Definitely tricky business...
Often I hear modern trance tracks with those hard hitting VEC sampled kickdrums, and while I do love the VEC kick samples, they often just don't fit into the track as well as another kick may have, and I end up turning the track off in the first 9 seconds because it creates an in-your-face vibe that I need to be in the proper mood for.
PS: Some of my absolute favorite kicks were done by a fellow on this forum. =) |
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| gk_nz |
Why you guys say these sample cd kicks need more compression makes me wonder how well you understand compression. Those samples are already heavily processed (the vengeance and icone sample packs).... anymore compression will just rape the life out of them. And in terms of dynamic control sampled kicks aren't overlly dynamic anyway, so there levels will be consistent individually speaking, and one of the main usees of is too control overlly dynamic sounds, ie ones that have varying volume levels, which applies to things like recorded guitars or bass for example....
Now if we're talking a raw kick with no processing done to it yet thats a different story.... but even then compression isn't always needed, EQ is most important.
So what am I trying to say here, don't blindly use compression thinking it will infinitly make sounds better every time you use it. Think about what it's doing and what your doing it too, is it really needed? You may read a lot of articles about how band engineers do things but again I have to stress they are dealing with live recordings with no previous or very little processing that have the human factor. What does that mean, humans can't play instruments at the same volume all the time, and also some notes will be louder than others. Us dance music producers are dealing with the same sound being repeated at the same volume. And most likely the sound has been recycled/processed so many times its not funny... you just have to look at the vengeance samples to realise that....
Anyway good kick sounds with punch... layering is KEY. Hmm I think I need to put together a tutorial on this stuff. |
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| substorm |
| quote: | Originally posted by gk_nz
Why you guys say these sample cd kicks need more compression makes me wonder how well you understand compression. Those samples are already heavily processed (the vengeance and icone sample packs).... anymore compression will just rape the life out of them. And in terms of dynamic control sampled kicks aren't overlly dynamic anyway, so there levels will be consistent individually speaking, and one of the main usees of is too control overlly dynamic sounds, ie ones that have varying volume levels, which applies to things like recorded guitars or bass for example....
Now if we're talking a raw kick with no processing done to it yet thats a different story.... but even then compression isn't always needed, EQ is most important.
So what am I trying to say here, don't blindly use compression thinking it will infinitly make sounds better every time you use it. Think about what it's doing and what your doing it too, is it really needed? You may read a lot of articles about how band engineers do things but again I have to stress they are dealing with live recordings with no previous or very little processing that have the human factor. What does that mean, humans can't play instruments at the same volume all the time, and also some notes will be louder than others. Us dance music producers are dealing with the same sound being repeated at the same volume. And most likely the sound has been recycled/processed so many times its not funny... you just have to look at the vengeance samples to realise that....
Anyway good kick sounds with punch... layering is KEY. Hmm I think I need to put together a tutorial on this stuff. |
There is no (you should or should not) in this. I have created a tecnique that works for me and how i want it to sound. The Vengeance kicks and Icone kicks are compressed yes. However i think there not that good shaped. I like my kick to be tight and harder then that, so i PITCH, EQ and Compress the kick until i get the sound and "shape" i want from it.
Dont be limited by the books!
C |
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| Seppa |
| quote: | | There is no (you should or should not) in this. |
I agree 100%, lets not forget that a compressor is not only use for the sake of compressing a sound but its quite a creative tool(eg env) |
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| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by substorm
There is no (you should or should not) in this. I have created a tecnique that works for me and how i want it to sound. The Vengeance kicks and Icone kicks are compressed yes. However i think there not that good shaped. I like my kick to be tight and harder then that, so i PITCH, EQ and Compress the kick until i get the sound and "shape" i want from it.
Dont be limited by the books!
C |
I agree, though what he's saying is definitely true -- there IS already a lot of compression and EQ on many dance kicks, and this causes overproduction.
Though it still definitely depends on the situation and how it fits in the track; his advice is good though: be tasteful, and less is sometimes more. |
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| flutlicht junky |
Well nearly 100% of the time we use compression is for creative purposes.
The synths we use have a pretty predictable output (if you compare to a human playing a guitar or singing) and so compression on them is virtually unnecessary unless it is for creative purposes.
FJ |
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| gk_nz |
| quote: | Originally posted by substorm
There is no (you should or should not) in this. I have created a tecnique that works for me and how i want it to sound. The Vengeance kicks and Icone kicks are compressed yes. However i think there not that good shaped. I like my kick to be tight and harder then that, so i PITCH, EQ and Compress the kick until i get the sound and "shape" i want from it.
Dont be limited by the books!
C |
Sure don't be limited, if it sounds good do it. As I said in my post think carefully about what your using it for, and in your case your using it in a creative way to shape the sound rather than dynamical control so that shows you have thought about it and you know what your using it for. Others may not know what they're doing especially if they follow advice that says I compress there kicks. So I guess people need to be careful telling newbies to compress your kick without saying why they are doing it because its dangerious especially on highly processed sounds, compression has a wide range of uses and it needs to be setup very specifically for different effects and scenarios. I know for along time when I started I would see people on here say oh I compress my kicks so I would blindly do it because I didnt know any better and it never worked because I didn't understand compression and its various uses and also in what context that person was using it.
And in regards to shaping your sound you could use audio envelopes in a sampler or in cubase... cubase sx3 has great audio shaping ability its great! So compression isn't always needed to shape the sound, you probably know this but just a note to others who maybe reading this. |
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| ASFSE |
| gk_nz knows where it's at im afraid.:) |
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| jey |
| quote: | Originally posted by substorm
There is no (you should or should not) in this. I have created a tecnique that works for me and how i want it to sound. The Vengeance kicks and Icone kicks are compressed yes. However i think there not that good shaped. I like my kick to be tight and harder then that, so i PITCH, EQ and Compress the kick until i get the sound and "shape" i want from it.
Dont be limited by the books!
C |
+2 |
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| B_man |
| I usually layer kick samples VERY CAREFULLY... just slappiing two samples together is going to produce terrible cancelling and flanging stupidity. Usually, I'll find a bassy kick that I like and tweak it's cutoff, compression for warmth, and tail. Then, I'll take another kick sample that's not very trance, or has alot of mid-high range. I'll bandpass it and cutoff the bandpass until I like the sound combined. Then, I'll see if there are some other holes in the mid-high ranges that need filled and gather other samples such as hats - pitch them down... and layer again. THEN... I'll look at my levels and adjust accordingly (Bass kick for more OOMPH, Mid kick for more splash, other samples for more mid-to-highs). |
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| wayfinder |
| I always have to laugh a little when people say "EQ and compress your kicks" as if there was just one compressor and EQ setting that could be applied like a band-aid or something. Compression in particular is a very powerful tool to shape your sound, and not knowing what it does can be fatal. For example, if you compress a kick with a very short attack setting, you might end up destroying the clicky bits that make it snap in the mix. If you choose a threshold that catches the tail, you might end up with a too saturated, distorted sound. And so on. |
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