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How do you all keep doing it!??! (pg. 3)
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| nefardec |
| quote: | | Don't forget the sole purpose of a dj that's not a turntablist is to play what the people like. It's not really your call to not play it if you don't like it. |
Sorry but that's one of the saddest things I've ever read here. You are describing either a jukebox or a whore, but definitely not a DJ. I think you ought to learn a little more about the history of DJing before you make a disgraceful comment like that.
It's people with your opinion who have MADE the DJ into a disposable commodity - I hope you realize that.
I have made it my explicit mission to only play what I like every time I play and I have been nothing short of successful in that regard. (and this is mostly due to fantastic and passionate friends and partners I have, among them SPAWNmaster who replied earlier in this thread) No, I don't have a residency in my ty college town, but why would I want one if it would make me write things like this thread to people like you.
I spend 100% of my time in love with my music and developing MY sound, and not regurgitating the sound of money spilling out of the pockets of top40 record labels...
DJing is about responding to the crowd. But don't be so dense to think that means playing music that is already popular. MUSIC IS A LANGUAGE WHICH TRANSCENDS POPULAR CULTURE. Good music is good music, a good beat is a good beat. Believe it or not you can make people dance to music they've never heard before. THAT is DJing. Anything else is just being a tool with overpriced cd players.
And if the people are adverse to the music simply because they have some prejudice against dance music (which does happen), then you're playing for the wrong crowd, and if you need money, then you should do something else and keep DJing as a passion and a hobby or develop your own parties outside of your other job.
@Threadstarter:
Man, I'm sorry but you have three paying jobs DJing - nothing to complain about!
Just take the money as it comes, save up, develop playing music you like on your own.
When you can't take it enough quit your jobs or just one, and then devote yourself towards promoting your own parties.
I don't eat for days some times because I spent all my money on DJ equipment, music, and my own parties. I'm weeks late on my rent. You are extremely lucky to have three residencies.
Where I am located, in Ithaca, NY, where I go to university, there is a cabal of sellout djs who are very good at providing an acceptable mainstream dj service to the gen pop. These guys get all the residencies, and though I've been able to get into these places for occasional parties, it's only because I have done all the planning and promotion myself.
Essentially what I did was start this group "The Electronic Music Collective", about three years ago. It began organized as an independent student organization through Cornell University, with the hopes of getting funding. We don't get from the university however, but since we started, we have been able to promote our organization through the school - eg I have been booked to play at museum/gallery openings, and we have a large fairly worldly and international student base. I also take classes in music and electronic music production and we have ties to the music department that way, which gets us some equipment, and lets us do promotional things like DJ demonstrations on a more public scale. The group also functions as a social network for the 140+ people who are part of it, and we regularly promote parties (one or two every weekend). The group has also served as a sort of school of DJing in that several of our members have been inspired to buy their own equipment, and we all help eachother out and play gigs together.
I am extremely dissatisfied with the that mainstream America will settle for and I do everything I can to fight for quality dance music in house parties and clubs. I tend to play more house parties because I like the underground feeling much more, and I can get a lot more creative with my sets. Particularly my favorite time to play a house party is the first hour when it's just beginning, and I can get really experimental with my track selections...
I think you probably just need more independence promoting your own stuff. It's hard work and you'll have a lot of flops as I have, but so what if it's just 15 people in the beginning...don't let your ego prevent you from doing what really makes you happy |
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| Ministerio |
BTW..VERY GOOD POST ABOVE^ You have my respect.
My question is this: How does a small time 19 year old (myself) with a good scene in his city (Toronto) get a chance to play any gigs, when all of his friend's despise EDM, thus he is forced to go to clubs alone to 'mingle/network' however due to the lack of people he's going with, he never goes.
That's my problem right there and has been for a while...it's eating me up. |
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| Watts |
To me, Hip-Hop took djing above and beyond the days of crossfading from one track to the next. I trace the development of innovative djing through Hip-Hop (and somewhat with Francis Grasso.) Your path through the annals of spinning may be different than mine.
I guess you took what I said as a shock. You make it sounds as though I condone this type of activity, which is understandable if you usually react in the way you did by shoving your philosophy about playing other people's music down my throat. I probably would not be mistaken in thinking you did not even bother to consider that people may actually like the popular stuff and what you listen to constitutes a small portion of the mass' taste: the portion they do not want to hear. Why people want to argue aesthetics is beyond me.
With some, there is no point in telling them more than once because no creative feedback is generated and the entire thread turns into a flame-war, probably becomes locked, and puts a long or permanent hold on a topic with the potential for some interesting in-depth discussion.
Here it goes: you are playing someone else's music. It is not your "sound" (but you could be that guy that people think of when they hear "banging hard jakkin' house"), and you certainly are not doing anyone favors by dismissing what someone else likes as trite. You think Kool Herc wanted to play funk records? He started off with reggae and dub, but it was poorly received by the Bronx natives. He, being the bigger man, submitted to the masses and gave them what they wanted. You could argue that he could have continued what he was doing because it was what he liked; however, he would have been replaced by someone to meet the demand of the masses to bring them pleasure.
Remember this is back in the day when no one, absolutely no one, was doing anything like what he was doing. With such a unique djing method he could have easily brushed away the people's disdain of reggae and pressed on, but he didn't. Please remember anything and everything is a business (especially entertainment) and someone is always waiting right behind you to take your scraps and run with it for less.
If you will not play that song you really hate or do not love but the dancers do congrats, you have ruined their night for that brief moment regardless if you believe you are "educating" them. I guess if you continue depriving them of what they want you could ruin their whole night, but a good dj does not do that.
Playing what you like without considering the tastes of others may sound noble, but it is really no different than the typical authoritarian government. You are doing what you think is best for the people instead of caving in to what they want.
I would be more than happy to talk about this over private message because discussions like these can actually be insightful when each side know how to keep his cool. |
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| nefardec |
I'm not an ass, and this will not become a "flame war"
Just PMed you, but a lot of what I said I said publicly because I think it's important to have a group discussion on a group discussion forum.
Just have to publicly respond to this:
| quote: | | I guess if you continue depriving them of what they want you could ruin their whole night, but a good dj does not do tha |
The entire point is to program a set well enough that you DON'T ruin a night. a good DJ doesn't have to play "what they want" all the time to get a crowd moving.
Like I said before, reading the crowd doesn't mean asking them what popular songs they can sing along with - music and rhythm are more a universal language to me - people can understand good dance music regardless if it's in a popular "vernacular" or not.
Please refrain from likening my DJ style to an authoritarian government.
Remember, I don't play for top 40 crowds, so what I do is more "utpoian" if you have to make a metaphor. I don't impose anything, I throw my own parties and invite specific guests, marketing to specific crowds (ie graduate students and international students - and guess what - it catches on with people who I never imagined it would catch with.
I think one needs to consider the greater impact of what one does life. We should stop living in this culture of instant gratification. Does no one else but me see the problem with the "youth culture" today? Better said, "What youth culture?" (in the usa at least).
Watch the movie "who killed the electric car" and then substitute electric car with underground sensibility/music, petroleum fuel companies to top 40 record labels, and auto manufacturers with top 40 djs |
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| pactdonkey |
i think this is a good debate and the starting post was very good and sums up my thoughts on what a successful dj should be like.
I believe that a dj shud be good and popular for his music selection, not for giving in easily so the crowd can sing along with there favorite tunes.
And by doing this i think the best path to gain this respect and awareness is to start your own night, build up a good following and start promoting it bigger and bigger. Eventually getting into a club with a big enuf following to blow the roof off and then from the club scene the theory of starting ur own night will take place again, as in people going away satisfied. Once you are well known, u will be well known for your music taste and style. Now how cool would it be to play music u love and watch hundreds of people bouncing to it.
instead of regretfully dropping a crap song in your opinion and having to pretend u like it for the crowd. i cant see the point in that at all.
If the thread starter doesn't mind maybe we could direct this discussion on ideas for own nights and if anyone has done it before give some tips and feedback on how it went. i think it wud be helpful for everyone. |
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| Raveaddict19 |
I totally wouldnt mind a subject change. Especially since I think I originally posted this thread simply out of frusturation, but I'm glad I did since I've come to realize a few things.
First off, nefardec I'm going to have to somewhat disagree with some of your points. While I don't think that one needs to 'sell out' so to speak (which you can all argue if I have or not) a DJ is definitley NOT that entitled to playing any damn thing they want. Maybe you haven't worked in a club circuit, but a crowd pleaser is whats desired, not a musical educator. It always baffles me when people say "my own sound"...Frankly, your playing OTHER peoples records...While I can understand, ya he plays epic trance, yeah he plays minimal, or he has a minimal sound, cool, but as far as getting an ego about DJ'ing, thats the biggest mistake you can make and will put you last in the race of people trying to please the crowd.
IF this IS in fact your position, the important thing is to simply acknowledge that, and do just that, your OWN thing such as your parties, EDM collective and what not, and I think thats really cool cuz its more than I have to say about my accomplishments>>>
All in all, I guess it's not so much anyones fault other than mass media and how our cultures styles have developed, but thats another thread :crazy:
What needs to be learned is the sad truth that in scenes such as mine, 'success' (which is subjective of course) is in fact only achieved by pleasing the masses with what they want and believe me, I would first hand know this. I play out tiny bits of EDM, and within 30 seconds, and no, im not exaggerrating, people will boo\complain and request hip hop.
So yeah! I'm all about party hosting experiences and suggestions
Topics like
Where are parties thrown?
How is promotion done?
Music selection?
Keeping folks interested?
All those sorts of things I'd love to know especially in my scene. I have no problems fronting cash (thats what top 40 gigs are for :tongue2 ) but could definitley use some tips |
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| nefardec |
I think you guys exaggerate my point a little bit -
I play mostly for a crowd that is very similar to me, and so if I play "what I want", it's not like they don't also like it...
I would never play for a top40 crowd and then dish out what I play. Therefore I'm not going to play for a top40 crowd. Now, I have played frat parties and private house parties where the crowd is a little more mainstream, and I've opened for girl talk, where the crowd came to hear top40 essentially maimed and the body parts glued together, so there were counter culture types and mainstreamers alike. I certainly have 'levels of approachability' and I know what people like, but I never have resorted to actually playing top40 music to have a good night.
Of course you're not out to educate people explicitly, but if you deny that the DJ has some role as a musical evangelist so to speak, then I think that's a bit short sighted. A DJ always has the potential to push a style, and you can do this to as little or as much degree as you're comfortable with.
Honestly, there is no greater high for me than playing the music I love and seeing people who never IMAGINED the music loving it as well. I'm telling you this is what it's all about!
| quote: | | Frankly, your playing OTHER peoples records |
If you look at my playlists you will see plenty of my own edits and probably soon you will see productions...
But in any case, you're missing the point of DJing in "making music from music" as derrick may says. "making records sing to each other". I look at DJing as musical in this way, and when I say "my own sound", this is because:
- the DJ is a musical editor. think of a DJ like an editor of a publication. he decides what to put in, what parts of it to put in, what parts to emphasize, etc. in this regard you can have a bias - a political magazine editor can choose to include only essays that support X political platform, effectively creating an identity and a position for that magazine, and as a DJ I can choose to include certain tracks that have collective meaning.
- the way you use a track can be vastly different from someone else. Even if I am playing a track that is popular, let's say Leger & Lake - Aqualight, for instance, I try to mix it in a way that makes it my own. Djing is a form of collage and these collages can be meaningful and don't have to be simply an awkward 10 seconds to three minutes of waiting for the next song some drunk girl requested. That's what I mean by my own sound. I tend to be telatively anti-anthem as well because tracks that are too anthemic and self-involved tend to work against the "collective meaning", though sometimes they are dramatic and great on the dance floor. |
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| Raveaddict19 |
Ok ok ok
The editing analogy is a pretty good one! To me, the whole 'your own sound' is kind of hogwash to me. I mean I think we all like to do that since superstar DJ's have...their 'own' sound. But its in itself kind of crazy to say that unless that person is a complete originator of a sound. For example, I can't really say Eddie Halliwell sounds like many other people, but at the same time, there are tons who are very similar and even more who will mimick him. He indeed deserves credit for earning that brand of course, but through the mass amounts of media attention, I would expect him to get that title as with anyone who gets a bunch of coverage
Kudos to you for never playing out to a top 40 crowd. What I meant by the thread was if you truly indeed in a scene where theres not much hopes of playing EDM, how does one keep the drive going??? Not if your too hip or too loyal to play top 40, which yes, I can understand since ya theres tons of those cats in Grand Rapids playing out in their bedrooms or to 5 friends getting drunk at a house, which I guess is fine, but not my ideal scene (nor is top 40) so you can kind of see the lose lose situation I suppose.
I prefer to be honest, and just say yes, I play top 40 to a large crowd of people several times a week, and i get paid gobs of cash and end up doing a pretty good job. Also, all the people that DO in fact do these dance events that happen once in a blue moon, are the ones that also hold residencies at top 40 clubs, since i think contrary to belief, not many top 40 cats are actually allll about top 40, atleast around here. So it makes much more sense to earn the connections and playing out and money rather than being a purist in my bedroom I suppose, but still doesnt take away the original meaning of the thread by just asking, how the does one keep up with actually wanting to buy tons of dance music and all that and have absolutley no real outlet for it all?
Damn my long posts :whip: |
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| Raveaddict19 |
Ok ok ok
The editing analogy is a pretty good one! To me, the whole 'your own sound' is kind of hogwash to me. I mean I think we all like to do that since superstar DJ's have...their 'own' sound. But its in itself kind of crazy to say that unless that person is a complete originator of a sound. For example, I can't really say Eddie Halliwell sounds like many other people, but at the same time, there are tons who are very similar and even more who will mimick him. He indeed deserves credit for earning that brand of course, but through the mass amounts of media attention, I would expect him to get that title as with anyone who gets a bunch of coverage
Kudos to you for never playing out to a top 40 crowd. What I meant by the thread was if you truly indeed in a scene where theres not much hopes of playing EDM, how does one keep the drive going??? Not if your too hip or too loyal to play top 40, which yes, I can understand since ya theres tons of those cats in Grand Rapids playing out in their bedrooms or to 5 friends getting drunk at a house, which I guess is fine, but not my ideal scene (nor is top 40) so you can kind of see the lose lose situation I suppose.
I prefer to be honest, and just say yes, I play top 40 to a large crowd of people several times a week, and i get paid gobs of cash and end up doing a pretty good job. Also, all the people that DO in fact do these dance events that happen once in a blue moon, are the ones that also hold residencies at top 40 clubs, since i think contrary to belief, not many top 40 cats are actually allll about top 40, atleast around here. So it makes much more sense to earn the connections and playing out and money rather than being a purist in my bedroom I suppose, but still doesnt take away the original meaning of the thread by just asking, how the does one keep up with actually wanting to buy tons of dance music and all that and have absolutley no real outlet for it all?
Damn my long posts :whip: |
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| nefardec |
Yeah the thing is though, I don't play in the bedroom, I work/go to school all week and on the weekends we pack houses with between 50-200 people, and I play in clubs as well, the difference being I approach the owners with my own ideas and rent out the place instead of asking for a job.
Look I understand the need to make money , and again my position is not a position of aesthetics - there is a ton of sounding EDM and a ton of good sounding pop... My position is more like, I see the DJ as more of a booked musician and not so much a hired entertainer, and so I have more of a moral issue of why continue to feed the corporate machine we know as the popular music industry (not to say that dance music isn't such a machine as well)
And "my own sound" - let's not get hung up on this. I know well I'm playing other people's records. This is a euphemism for "the collective relationship that all my records have, which makes my collection different from the next guy's)
Probably this dialogue is difficult because I am not into the residency scene and I don't have a responsibility to a business. When people hire me or I throw my own events be it at a club or at a house, they are hiring me because they know what I will bring to the event, they pay me for my playlist as well as my mere ability to operate DJ equipment. They pay me/book me for "my sound" :p, not just because having a live DJ at a house party makes the house look cool. And because I make my money elsewhere, (mostly freelance graphic design) I have the liberty to choose my events and to stay true to my musical interests 99% of the time.
So to bring it back to the original topic: you have to make the decision between the above two routes. You can make money and play in top40 clubs but you will be responsible to a business and to a rude, arrogant mainstream crowd who doesn't appreciate or even know half the time what a DJ does. Or you can go a more independent route and throw/promote/dj your own parties. One can't do this alone unless one is rich and doesn't have to work/go to school, because it often takes a lot of money and time. I gradually built up a group of many amazing people that makes everything possible for me and the other DJs in the group.
At the end,
it's whatever makes you happy that's most important. I'm not going to sit here and lecture people on whether what makes them happy is good or bad (kind of a lie haha just try not to take me too seriously), but I think I've made it clear that what makes me happy is music and a scene which is anti-establishment, progressive, musical, and independent. [loaded language]If money is what makes you happy, or pats on the back from meatheads/kisses from drunk girls, or just the great feeling you get from watching people go off on a big track, then you don't even need me to tell you to keep doing it. Yeah, money and attention of the desired sex is a strong force, believe me I know, and I know the feeling of dropping a huge track just at the right moment and having people rush the stage and scream....
Personally, it means more to me if I had to dig for that track and it's never been heard by the crowd before, and it's musically compelling than if it's something everyone hears on a Target commercial, but that's just me.
sorry for the long post - hopefully this is of interest to somebody else. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| can someone split this thread up into chapters? kthnx |
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| Nemesis44 |
Actually some well put together posts and you are both correct. It's all relative to where you are playing.
I get to play some interesting clubs with some pretty big names sometimes. When you start hitting the circuits you will soon realise that even promoters have their own idea of what your sound is so you do need to be aware of what's going on. A lot of clubs will have a music policy in place and will even enforce it on the headliner. I played with Marco V just over a year ago and they even requested the sound they wanted from him.
As I said it's all realtive to the freedom that the owner/promoter and ulitmately the dance floor are willing to give you. There is simply no point in trying to educate someone that isn't interested in what you have to offer.
If you are fortunate enough to have a crowd that's into EDM then your hands are less tied than if you are playing for a mainstream crowd, no two ways about it.
Being a DJ is about creating your own opportunities because if you don't then you will get nowhere fast.
The danger is playing in top 40 clubs as a lot of guys start out with the best intentions in the world and then get stuck there, and it can be soul destroying because it turns out that it's got nothing that got you into DJing in the first place.
If your town doesn't have an EDM scene, then you either create one or move somehwere that does, but be aware that both will take time and commitment. (That's more for the thread starter).
Above all, patience is a virtue that has to come hand in hand with your desire. You just have to ask yourself, what is this dream worth to me.
And trust me, there is no better feeling in the world than having a dance floor go frantic with every little thing you do, but be aware it does become addictive and you want always have nights where you bring the house down. But when you do... you will know.
Cheers
Nem |
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