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They're, Their, and There (pg. 7)
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| Lira |
It's a shame that schools actually convince most people that they don't speak their language properly... :(
| quote: | Originally posted by Gauss
Also, I find it ridiculous when I go to forums where English is spoken (which is foreign to me) and find out that I know English better than people who have it as their mother tongue... It's kinda sad, actually. |
It's not sad at all, because that's a myth rather than a reality.
First of all, the grammar we learn at school is extremely idealised. I, for instance, learnt that "If I were" is the correct form of expressing the subjective mood in English. Non-sense, given the fact that most native speakers naturally say "If I was". We're always learning an ideal English, and these people speak real English, which is one step ahead of us (so to speak). The reason why learning real English is impossible is because languages doesn't evolve the same way everywhere.
Spelling words properly, when compared to natives, doesn't mean anything at all either: you might never know when the sole reason why you don't misspell a word is because the phonology of your mother language prevents you from doing that. As an example, here in Brazil most people wouldn't ever mix up "they're, their and there" because the brazilianised spoken version of these words are:
They're --- Brazilian Accent --> They-ruh
Their --- Brazilian Accent ----> They-ur
There --- Brazilian Accent ----> There
Unfortunately, spelling doesn't reflect these exotic pronunciations.
And this is not just Brazilians - this is bound to happen to every student of foreign languages (except for those that know a thing or two about the phonology of the target language, or listen to it a lot more than they read).
| quote: | Originally posted by inconspicuous
yeah, except it's illiterate. "they" is always plural. You cannot refer to one person as "they."
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No, it's not illiterate. If speakers think it's necessary to use "they" to refer to one person, and this use is well understood in a community, the only thing lagging behind is the "grammar". Unfortunately, written grammars are not wikis :p |
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| klingklang77 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
...learnt that "If I were" is the correct form of expressing the subjective mood in English. Non-sense, given the fact that most native speakers naturally say "If I was"...
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Interesting post, as always Lira...
I do disagree with the "if I was" part though. From what I understand, when "if I was" is used it is mainly used by American speakers. Speakers of British English and varieties of that English dont really do that, based on my experience. Many Americans also use "if I were you" as well.
The above is what I have noticed. |
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| klingklang77 |
I dont really get annoyed at there, they're or their, only when someone constantly makes the same mistake over and over again. I am on another message board and this person is always using it incorrectly. THAT annoys me.
What does annoy me is incorrect usuage of Present perfect. Many people say "Did you do (something) yet?" instead of "Have you done (something) yet?" That kind of annoys me. Or "I did it already" instead of "I've done it already" also annoys me.
Or just simple subject/verb agreement- He don't.... stuff like that annoys me.
Here is a good website if you ever question tricky things in grammar:
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by klingklang77
Interesting post, as always Lira...
I do disagree with the "if I was" part though. From what I understand, when "if I was" is used it is mainly used by American speakers. Speakers of British English and varieties of that English dont really do that, based on my experience. Many Americans also use "if I were you" as well.
The above is what I have noticed. |
Hehe, thanks for the observation :) I stand corrected - indeed that "error" is not as usual as I thought it were (I actually asked Googlefight to help me out here :D). It's just that, when I learnt the subjective mood, my teacher told me that we'd probably here "If I was" more often than "if I were", and my impression might be biased because of selective perception (I only noticed when people said "If I was"). However, "If I was" is still somewhat popular according to Google (with about 38% of all results), and shouldn't be stigmatised.
As for the "did you do it yet?"/"I did it already" and "have you done it yet?"/"I've done it already", the results surprised me [2]. I didn't know people people actually said "Did you (...) yet?"... is it an American thing?
I guess you could replace my "If I were" example with that :p |
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| Zewad |
i love to call people out on double negatives....
that really does say..."you are dumb" and "i caught you being dumb" |
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| klingklang77 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
As for the "did you do it yet?"/"I did it already" and "have you done it yet?"/"I've done it already", the results surprised me [2]. I didn't know people people actually said "Did you (...) yet?"... is it an American thing?
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Yeah it is American English. When I began teaching in Australia I had an American English grammar book and it said both were ok. But when I asked the head teacher here, he said it was wrong and I learned that no one says it here. I grew up learning it was OK, but it is actually incorrect. The differences in American English and British English are really interesting (to me at least). Certain countries (Japan, Korea and a few others) learn American English, so at times it makes my job difficult. I often get questions about Past simple used with yet, already and other Present perfect time words and I have to tell them that it is incorrect, which breaks my heart, b/c they struggle with Present perfect to begin with. When they get to a higher level I let them know you can use Past simple with yet, already etc. I think any American would agree that you can use yet, already, since etc with Past simple. They have no idea that technically it is incorrect. |
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| klingklang77 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zewad
i love to call people out on double negatives....
that really does say..."you are dumb" and "i caught you being dumb" |
Brent you aren't no dumb person...;) |
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| Cloudburst |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
It's a shame that schools actually convince most people that they don't speak their language properly... :(
It's not sad at all, because that's a myth rather than a reality.
First of all, the grammar we learn at school is extremely idealised. I, for instance, learnt that "If I were" is the correct form of expressing the subjective mood in English. Non-sense, given the fact that most native speakers naturally say "If I was". We're always learning an ideal English, and these people speak real English, which is one step ahead of us (so to speak). The reason why learning real English is impossible is because languages doesn't evolve the same way everywhere.
Spelling words properly, when compared to natives, doesn't mean anything at all either: you might never know when the sole reason why you don't misspell a word is because the phonology of your mother language prevents you from doing that. As an example, here in Brazil most people wouldn't ever mix up "they're, their and there" because the brazilianised spoken version of these words are:
They're --- Brazilian Accent --> They-ruh
Their --- Brazilian Accent ----> They-ur
There --- Brazilian Accent ----> There
Unfortunately, spelling doesn't reflect these exotic pronunciations.
And this is not just Brazilians - this is bound to happen to every student of foreign languages (except for those that know a thing or two about the phonology of the target language, or listen to it a lot more than they read).
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I was merely saying exactly what I wrote; that I don't have problems writing (most) things properly. On the other hand I'm very aware that actually speaking and "living" the language they are far ahead of me. When I chat in Swedish I sometimes have a tendency to get sloppy, because I think much faster than I write (and I don't write slow :p). I guess it's the same for english speaking people.
Or maybe they just suck at spelling those words. :p |
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| Lilith |
Something of a redundant and highly subjective topic really, considering where it is.
It is an international forum and to be pertinent, one that's used on a casual basis (we certainly aren't writing essays here) by people all over the world who have different levels of English comprehension and education. 'Judging' people on their grasp one particular language just strikes me as coming across as being very arrogant and intolerant. Certainly not a mark against anyone as value to the community or detracting in any way to their contributions.
The use of mockery upon those that do it is also hardly conductive to actually helping anyone learn as well, those of you who are teachers and students alike really should be ashamed for that behaviour. No one wants to learn from someone who is arrogant and derisive to them and I see that a lot, especially in the use of arguments where the lowest common denominator comes to the fore, "oh, lets deride their use of language rather than what they're actually saying."
A poor use of the education you've been so very privileged to enjoy to say the least and an even worse example of yourself to display any kind of maturity. In fact it makes people look like cloistered boors, unbecoming behaviour from those who've never so much as been out of their own little backyards.
(Oh I'm so terribly sorry to have grossly offended anyone by butchering the english language in this post with whatever mistakes I've made in grammar, punctuation and spelling. :rolleyes: ) |
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| RickyM |
| quote: | Originally posted by UWM
Can you get off my ing nuts already? |
:cool: |
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| smallSHEEP |
| which witch is which? |
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| D-res |
| I think there are a lot of problems with "two, to, too" although more so with people who are unsure of the correct usage of "too". |
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