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Pope says Darwin's theory cannot be finally proven
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| Krypton |
I would agree with the Pope. What's outside of space-time cannot be explained by science. We know that our universe isn't the only existence there is.
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Pope discusses boundaries of science.
By MELISSA EDDY Wed Apr 11, 5:47 PM ET
BERLIN - Benedict XVI, in his first extended reflections on evolution published as pope, says that Darwin's theory cannot be finally proven and that science has unnecessarily narrowed humanity's view of creation.
In a new book, "Creation and Evolution," published Wednesday in German, the pope praised progress gained by science, but cautioned that evolution raises philosophical questions science alone cannot answer.
"The question is not to either make a decision for a creationism that fundamentally excludes science, or for an evolutionary theory that covers over its own gaps and does not want to see the questions that reach beyond the methodological possibilities of natural science," the pope said.
He stopped short of endorsing intelligent design, but said scientific and philosophical reason must work together in a way that does not exclude faith.
"I find it important to underline that the theory of evolution implies questions that must be assigned to philosophy and which themselves lead beyond the realms of science," the pope was quoted as saying in the book, which records a meeting with fellow theologians the pope has known for years.
In the book, Benedict reflected on a 1996 comment of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that Charles Darwin's theories on evolution were sound, as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin's theory of evolution was "more than a hypothesis."
"The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this," Benedict said. "But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory."
Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.
"We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory," he said.
Evolution has come under fire in recent years by proponents — mostly conservative Protestants — of "intelligent design," who believe that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher force rather than evolving from more primitive forms.
The book, which was released by the Sankt Ulrich publishing house, includes reflections of the pope and others who attended a meeting of theological scholars at the papal summer estate in Castel Gandolfo in early September.
The pope's remarks were consistent with one of his most important themes, that faith and reason are interdependent.
"Science has opened up large dimensions of reason ... and thus brought us new insights," the pope wrote. "But in the joy at the extent of its discoveries, it tends to take away from us dimensions of reason that we still need.
"Its results lead to questions that go beyond its methodical canon and cannot be answered within it," he said. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
"The question is not to either make a decision for a creationism that fundamentally excludes science, or for an evolutionary theory that covers over its own gaps and does not want to see the questions that reach beyond the methodological possibilities of natural science," the pope said.
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haha. what are the "methodological possibilities" of religion? has religion ever answered a single question about the natural world? |
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| spiflicated |
| I swear this looks really familiar. |
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| Floorfiller |
science and philosophic reason must work together, but not exlude faith?
that's makes absolutely no sense... |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
haha. what are the "methodological possibilities" of religion? has religion ever answered a single question about the natural world? |
He is referring to the questions science cannot answer. What happened before the Big Bang? What is outside of our universe? Are there other realms of existence? Where does our universe comes from?
Science is limited to our space-time universe. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
I would agree with the Pope. |
On what basis? Can you be a bit more specific? What SPECIFICALLY do you disagree with Darwin's theory?
| quote: | | What's outside of space-time cannot be explained by science. |
Such as?
| quote: | We know that our universe isn't the only existence there is.
Source |
Do we? Well gee, I didn't know we knew so much about other possible planes of existence. Actually, I think it's just me.
Could you tell me a bit more about what we know with such certainty (i.e. valid, verifiable, testable, and falsifiable) about other planes of existence? |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
He is referring to the questions science cannot answer. |
And prokrastlin was asking you about questions religion has no verifiable evidence to answer either.
| quote: | | What happened before the Big Bang? |
"We don't know yet."
Not a bad answer, is it? Personally I like that one better than the little fundie Christian fill-in-the-blank answer: "Godidit."
| quote: | | What is outside of our universe? Are there other realms of existence? Where does our universe comes from? |
All have the same answer of, "We don't know yet."
Can religion attempt such brutal honesty like that, or do we have to continue filling in the blanks with, "Godidit"?
Incidentally, you think it's any accident that our previous Pope John Paul had no problems with evolution, and yet this uber hard-line Pope believes otherwise?
| quote: | | Science is limited to our space-time universe. |
And that's a bad thing?
Judging by such boundaries, guess how much more limited religion is? |
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| Marc Summers |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
He is referring to the questions science cannot answer. What happened before the Big Bang? What is outside of our universe? Are there other realms of existence? Where does our universe comes from?
Science is limited to our space-time universe. |
I doubt we were the first big bang. That hurts my head already. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
He is referring to the questions science cannot answer. What happened before the Big Bang? What is outside of our universe? Are there other realms of existence? Where does our universe comes from?
Science is limited to our space-time universe. |
i think its rather disingenuous to imply that because there are currently questions unanswered by science, that somehow this means religion can fill in those blanks, when in fact religion is merely a personal belief system that provides nothing to our understanding of the universe.
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
"We don't know yet." |
i concur, its a stellar answer. nothing like a bit of brutal honesty to admit our limitations and in so doing- further our reach some time in the future. indeed, "we don't know" is normally the first statement a scientist admits before setting off on a long journey of attempted discovery.
somehow that seems more genuine than "god works in mysterious ways" :haha: |
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| Krypton |
MisterOpus:
1. I'de like to stick the subject of what the Pope had to say. We can debate the tenets of Darwinism at another time.
2. If you disagree the statement "Science cannot explain what's outside of space-time." Why? I would think physics could not be used to describe extra-universal planes.
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THE BOUNDARIES OF PHYSICS.
It wasn't until 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang that physics as we know it began. Between 0 and 10^-43 seconds, we don't know what went on. Nothing can be smaller than the Planck length, so how do you describe a universe smaller than the Planck length?
An even bigger question is what happened before 0 seconds to the Big Bang. Before time and space. Science has gotten us to this point of knowing what happened up to the point of the the instant of the Big Bang, then it breaks down.
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Theories such as Super-gravity (M Theory) cannot be correct without the mathematical values of extra so-called universes (planes), dimensions, etc. I can't look it up for you, but definitely take a read on it. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
MisterOpus:
1. I'de like to stick the subject of what the Pope had to say. We can debate the tenets of Darwinism at another time.
2. If you disagree the statement "Science cannot explain what's outside of space-time." Why? I would think physics could not be used to describe extra-universal planes.
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THE BOUNDARIES OF PHYSICS.
It wasn't until 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang that physics as we know it began. Between 0 and 10^-43 seconds, we don't know what went on. Nothing can be smaller than the Planck length, so how do you describe a universe smaller than the Planck length?
An even bigger question is what happened before 0 seconds to the Big Bang. Before time and space. Science has gotten us to this point of knowing what happened up to the point of the the instant of the Big Bang, then it breaks down.
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Theories such as Super-gravity (M Theory) cannot be correct without the mathematical values of extra so-called universes (planes), dimensions, etc. I can't look it up for you, but definitely take a read on it. |
i think youre making a false assumption. youre relying on currently limited scientific theory or understanding to justify your position that science will always be limited. |
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| Krypton |
1. Scientists themselves say physics breaks down at the instant of the Big Bang.
We can't get past this issue can we? |
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