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Debating the switch to Pro Tools... (pg. 3)
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| Existo22 |
Once you move out of the software world and start utilizing hardware to produce there are thing you should consider.
The quality of your signal path :
- The quality of the soundsource (synth/microphone/preamp e.c.t.)
- The quality of the convertor chip.
- The quality of the analog stage around the convertor chip
-The quality of the software that will record the data.
Let me put things in prespective looking at the plus and minuses of your move to PT.
Hopefully the information I will provide you will help you make the decision yourself.
First of the audio interfaces and convertors of degidesign are consumer grade. Black faced dats will sound better than that. There higher end are ok because they use better chips but the lower end LE stuff is consumer grade and connot compare to the quality of the convertors of interfaces such as motu, rme, and apogee because they don't use the same chips. All professional gear such as the tc finalizer, the motu and rme interfaces, the lexicon pmc reverbs, the apogge convertors utilize proffessional Asahi kasei convertor chips to handle the conversion from analog to digital.
Where pro tools shines in my opinion is in the quality of the software and the way it handles error correction. The DSP TDM version sounds better than anything else out there if the convertors and the signal path is equal. While the LE version does not sound as pristine as its bigger brother it still sounds better than other native software. The code is superior.
The problem though is that digidesign ties you up to their pain in the ass interfaces in order to use the program which is why many people don't bother going that route because for the project studio there are better options out there.
Cubase and the motu or rme soundcard will sound BETTER than the le stuff.
You could I guess get the mbox and use an external legacy apogge 48k analog to digital convertor hooked via spdif you are very serious about sounding proffessional.
On a side note there is also a cracked version around that allows LE users on a pc to use the $10000 TDM vesion with their mbox or digirack and even though that frees up the stupid, unnessesary limitations such as ''only 32 tracks'' e.c.t. (degidesign insists on to push aspiring producers to take out a loan and pay for the BIG industry standard vesrion and make them rich) I wouln't recommend it because it's ''illegal'' ;)
Now I will disagree with the other people here that say ''Pt is not good for Trance''
There is no such thing as ''good for trance'' when we are talking about recording software.
If YOU like it using it then it's good for you and it's ''good for trance''. End of discussion.
In case one:
You want a complete project studio to create and mix down your music.
You want to use software synths, hardware synths, plug-ins and maybe even external processors.You have a limited budget but you want to leave room to grow.
You need a pair of monitors, some decent production software (Reason,Fruity loops, other Plugins) slaved to some decent recording software (sonar, logic, cubase, digital perforer, nuendo e.c.t. ) and a good interface to handle the convertion from analog to digital and vise versa to use your external gear next to your virtual ones. The interface should have enough ins and outs to satisfy your needs.
In case two:
You want a preproduction setup.
You want an m-box hooked up to your stereo and maybe a small format mixer to Help you hook up more gear to the two inputs of the m-box. You are not really worried about the sound quality of the music because you will let the big boys handle this in a pro enviroment in the best pro studio down town.
All you need here is good musical ideas and you are using whatever you can to get them.
You produce there save a little bit of money to take the very best of your songs and have them mixed in a REAL studio by a REAL engineer.
The advantages of this approach are obvious:
- You know exacly what you want to do.
- You book time at a very good studio after you have your material ready.
- If you want to record any synths you put the in your car and take them with you.
- You bounce the pro-tools session with all your plugins, midi files and instruments.
-You go there to these wonderful engineers and play back the session and listen carefully for THEIR comments. Give the the freedom to ''fuc k'' with your music anyway they feel it will improve. They Know best.
- Your best tracks will be mixed in pro tools out on an SSL or neve. They will use high end tube UREI compressors, distressors, Manley limiters, State of the art external gear and plug-ins, plus a very experienced engineer that will know how to make it sound better instantly.
If your tracks are not going the where you want them to go just ask them for ''arranging ideas'': They will never tell you to fuc k off coz it's a cuthroat business. They will kiss your ass coz they need you more than you need them. Not only the sound quality of you mix will improve but the content as well.
The final song will sound 10.000 times better, bigger and fuller.
A label will look at you more seriously when the receive a demo:
Mixed at :..... studios
Producer: YOU
Project director:...
Mixing engineer: ....
Assistant engineer....
Mastered at ..... studios.
Mastering engineer ...
This is money for them and they know this! They aint going to let this pass. It sounds like money and money sounds good. You will get signed. ;)
You will see posts here like: How to get that ''Yourproduction'' sound.
You will laugh knowing how it got there and how it will never get there in a project studio enviroment.
If you are A : Don't move to the pro tools le. There are better stuff for the project studio.
If you are B : Move to pro tools LE. You need the session compatibility. |
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| thesuperfunk |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
cubase comes with some really really good plugins dude. I used to overlook them until I found out Manuel Schlies from vengence uses them.. |
I'm not faulting all of them but stuff like the delays/reverbs are horrible in Cubase!
Logic has EXS24 too! :D |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Existo22
Once you move out of the software world and start utilizing hardware to produce there are thing you should consider.
The quality of your signal path :
- The quality of the soundsource (synth/microphone/preamp e.c.t.)
- The quality of the convertor chip.
- The quality of the analog stage around the convertor chip
-The quality of the software that will record the data.
Let me put things in prespective looking at the plus and minuses of your move to PT.
Hopefully the information I will provide you will help you make the decision yourself.
First of the audio interfaces and convertors of degidesign are consumer grade. Black faced dats will sound better than that. There higher end are ok because they use better chips but the lower end LE stuff is consumer grade and connot compare to the quality of the convertors of interfaces such as motu, rme, and apogee because they don't use the same chips. All professional gear such as the tc finalizer, the motu and rme interfaces, the lexicon pmc reverbs, the apogge convertors utilize proffessional Asahi kasei convertor chips to handle the conversion from analog to digital.
Where pro tools shines in my opinion is in the quality of the software and the way it handles error correction. The DSP TDM version sounds better than anything else out there if the convertors and the signal path is equal. While the LE version does not sound as pristine as its bigger brother it still sounds better than other native software. The code is superior.
The problem though is that digidesign ties you up to their pain in the ass interfaces in order to use the program which is why many people don't bother going that route because for the project studio there are better options out there.
Cubase and the motu or rme soundcard will sound BETTER than the le stuff.
You could I guess get the mbox and use an external legacy apogge 48k analog to digital convertor hooked via spdif you are very serious about sounding proffessional.
On a side note there is also a cracked version around that allows LE users on a pc to use the $10000 TDM vesion with their mbox or digirack and even though that frees up the stupid, unnessesary limitations such as ''only 32 tracks'' e.c.t. (degidesign insists on to push aspiring producers to take out a loan and pay for the BIG industry standard vesrion and make them rich) I wouln't recommend it because it's ''illegal'' ;)
Now I will disagree with the other people here that say ''Pt is not good for Trance''
There is no such thing as ''good for trance'' when we are talking about recording software.
If YOU like it using it then it's good for you and it's ''good for trance''. End of discussion.
In case one:
You want a complete project studio to create and mix down your music.
You want to use software synths, hardware synths, plug-ins and maybe even external processors.You have a limited budget but you want to leave room to grow.
You need a pair of monitors, some decent production software (Reason,Fruity loops, other Plugins) slaved to some decent recording software (sonar, logic, cubase, digital perforer, nuendo e.c.t. ) and a good interface to handle the convertion from analog to digital and vise versa to use your external gear next to your virtual ones. The interface should have enough ins and outs to satisfy your needs.
In case two:
You want a preproduction setup.
You want an m-box hooked up to your stereo and maybe a small format mixer to Help you hook up more gear to the two inputs of the m-box. You are not really worried about the sound quality of the music because you will let the big boys handle this in a pro enviroment in the best pro studio down town.
All you need here is good musical ideas and you are using whatever you can to get them.
You produce there save a little bit of money to take the very best of your songs and have them mixed in a REAL studio by a REAL engineer.
The advantages of this approach are obvious:
- You know exacly what you want to do.
- You book time at a very good studio after you have your material ready.
- If you want to record any synths you put the in your car and take them with you.
- You bounce the pro-tools session with all your plugins, midi files and instruments.
-You go there to these wonderful engineers and play back the session and listen carefully for THEIR comments. Give the the freedom to ''fuc k'' with your music anyway they feel it will improve. They Know best.
- Your best tracks will be mixed in pro tools out on an SSL or neve. They will use high end tube UREI compressors, distressors, Manley limiters, State of the art external gear and plug-ins, plus a very experienced engineer that will know how to make it sound better instantly.
If your tracks are not going the where you want them to go just ask them for ''arranging ideas'': They will never tell you to fuc k off coz it's a cuthroat business. They will kiss your ass coz they need you more than you need them. Not only the sound quality of you mix will improve but the content as well.
The final song will sound 10.000 times better, bigger and fuller.
A label will look at you more seriously when the receive a demo:
Mixed at :..... studios
Producer: YOU
Project director:...
Mixing engineer: ....
Assistant engineer....
Mastered at ..... studios.
Mastering engineer ...
This is money for them and they know this! They aint going to let this pass. It sounds like money and money sounds good. You will get signed. ;)
You will see posts here like: How to get that ''Yourproduction'' sound.
You will laugh knowing how it got there and how it will never get there in a project studio enviroment.
If you are A : Don't move to the pro tools le. There are better stuff for the project studio.
If you are B : Move to pro tools LE. You need the session compatibility. |
Man, thank you so much for taking the time to compose that. It was EXACTLY what I was looking for.
I should have mentioned that, through previous rock experience, my Pro Tools experience was mainly with recording in the LE environment, using various plug-ins, and getting all my bassline tracks down, then taking them to my drummers full studio (full HD environment, full mix/mastering capabilities with SSL console) and mixing with him - no, not letting him mix himself, but working with him on that.
Based on what you've said here, I think I can safely stay with Pro Tools LE for getting the main project idea down, and then taking it that next step further in the full studio environment - one where the money has been spent, and I don't have to pay anything to mix/master.
Thank you! |
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| Existo22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elendil
Man, thank you so much for taking the time to compose that. It was EXACTLY what I was looking for.
I should have mentioned that, through previous rock experience, my Pro Tools experience was mainly with recording in the LE environment, using various plug-ins, and getting all my bassline tracks down, then taking them to my drummers full studio (full HD environment, full mix/mastering capabilities with SSL console) and mixing with him - no, not letting him mix himself, but working with him on that.
Based on what you've said here, I think I can safely stay with Pro Tools LE for getting the main project idea down, and then taking it that next step further in the full studio environment - one where the money has been spent, and I don't have to pay anything to mix/master.
Thank you! |
You are VERY lucky to have access to a studio like that for free. You have an advantage over 99% of EDM producers out there.
Good luck with your production. |
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| Elendil |
| Definitely - I'm lucky to have an asset like that. Thanks again to all who helped me out; may seem very newb-like, but sometimes the obvious just requires someone else pointing it out, especially since my EDM experience is limited to more hobby level, rather than rock - which I've been at for years. |
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| skot_e |
| I've always been keen to find out just what the problem is with MIDI in PT. I always see people saying it's crap, but no-one really backs it up with a reason as to what the problems are. Anyone care to shed some light? (What of current versions?) |
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| Existo22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by skot_e
I've always been keen to find out just what the problem is with MIDI in PT. I always see people saying it's crap, but no-one really backs it up with a reason as to what the problems are. Anyone care to shed some light? (What of current versions?) |
For some people midi is too basic in pro-tools.
That's why some studios use logic or Digital performer as a front end for the program. |
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| daeus |
Based on what Existo22 said...
I've heard that if you make your track as good as sounding as possible when its sent to the label and it sounds good they dont have to do much more work on it, as in you could use iZotope Ozone (a mastering VST) to get it sounding as best you can.
There are obviously online mastering companies, I'm not sure how they work but I would hope they would send you several mastered versions until you were happy because in a studio you can obviously hear it at each step and tell them what you think... |
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| Airyck Sterrett |
Alot of people are putting down the plugins in Cubase but the ones in Cubase 4 are actually very very good. I've been making some great sounds with the 3 new Synths, and the new fx are great. There are lots of different delays to choose from now, including a Mod-Delay which is very very nice. The new eq's are also spectacular. I don't know what I'd do without my good'ol Quadrafuzz either.
From what I know and I'm sure it's been said in this thread, Pro tools is not good for midi, nor using software synths if you do that at all.
I would say go with something good for trance production, Cubase, Logic, Samplitude, Sonar, etc... These are all great and professional applications that can allow you to produce a proffesional sound.
Good luck on your decision.
Cheers,
~Airyck~ |
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| skot_e |
| quote: | Originally posted by Existo22
For some people midi is too basic in pro-tools.
That's why some studios use logic or Digital performer as a front end for the program. |
So what your saying is it doesn't have as much functionality as, say, Logic? What sort of things are missing? I mean it has the ability to do automation for filtering etc, it can do program changes, record sys-ex, what else? Don't get me wrong, not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just not that familiar with it's shortcomings.
Or is it more that it's perhaps less intuitive? (Just guessing on this one) |
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| Roberttodd |
Cubase is the one, original and best, yes it can be a bit twitchy and your gonna need some VST's, but its the finest sequencer available.
Forget pro tools.
Logic is nice, very nice, but it means using a Mac, and Mac's certainly arent what they used to be. Overpriced, overratted, big, bulky and slow.
Cubase gets my vote. |
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| Diginerd |
| quote: | Originally posted by Roberttodd
Cubase is the one, original and best, yes it can be a bit twitchy and your gonna need some VST's, but its the finest sequencer available.
Forget pro tools.
Logic is nice, very nice, but it means using a Mac, and Mac's certainly arent what they used to be. Overpriced, overratted, big, bulky and slow.
Cubase gets my vote. |
I really can't help myself, I really tried to restrain myself..
The failure in logic (Bad pun) in the above is outstanding, and is coupled with a demonstrable lack of actual experience, as opposed to Secondhand "I heard it on teh internetz" attitude.
1. Cubase is not the one, original & best. If you want to go back in Steinberg history it was Pro 16 on the C64, or Pro24 on the ST.
Notator / Creator have been around as long as cubase and morphed into Logic. Logic used to be cross platform, but with the purchase of Emagic by Apple, Logic on the PC stopped at Version 5.
It's still a DAMN SOLID SEQUENCER at version 5 on the PC. I have a collection of friends who still do just that, run Logic 5 on a PC and make solid tracks. I mean the kind that are actually released on Vinyl.
Sequencer choice is very personal, and it's more about your ability to conceptulaize than to be tied to any one platform.
I've heard great stuff from FruityLoops (Much as I personally hate it), and a whole pile of crap from Logic, Cubase & *Insert name of Sequencer here*
It's your musical talent, and technical talent not the platform that makes a great track.
2. Cubase, at least the latest version 4 is buggy as . It blows chunks, sucks golfballs through hosepipes and any other metaphor you care to think of. Why? Because of the bugs and poor design considerations it really impeeds my WORKFLOW.
Don't get me wrong, I've be a LICENCED user of cubase since version 1 on my old Atari 1024FM.
Versions that I have sat around:-
Cubase 1, 2 3 (Atari)
Cubase 2, 3, 3XT (Only ever Cubase to use TDm Pro Tools hardware)
Cubase VST32 and it's spawn through to VST 5
Cubase SX 1, 2 & 3
Now Cubase 4.
Frankly I'm seriously considering geting an Atari TT and running cubase 3 on it. Stable, fast and solid Midi. I'd sync up my monster system to it via timecode to run audio tracks and Virtual Instruments. Something that is sorely lacking in the current versions.
The only reason I'm on Version 4 is it's universal Binary (Yes I run a Mac in the studio)
I have used logic a fair bit, and whilst I like it I couldn't justify forking out for two mainstream sequencer platforms and all the associated upgrades.
That said unless Cubase sorts its crap out I might just break away with it after all this time.
Yes I'm pissed.
3. Logic is an Apple program now, and there hasn't been a material upgrade for quite some time. By the rumor mill spinning Logic 8 (Which it prolly won't be called) is going to rewrite the rules. I personally am interested in seeing that, audio editing akin to Pro Tools, Midi as strong as ever.
4. Macs are most certainly not overpriced & underpowered these days. That's the most asinine statement I've heard for some time. If you look at the parts list and look at an equivalent PC you'll see how competitive they really are. Sure an 8 way machine is going to cost you north of $4500, but guess what, it is a Monster, not a toy for some warez kiddie to play on.
If you want to play then if you pick your pc hardware carefully you can get a hacked OSX to run on it. Prolly won't do you much good as there are hardly any UB warez, but if it's quality tools you are after then I guess you just have to go and pay for them.
Two sequencers that don't get much press are Digital Performer on the Mac, and Sonar on the PC. I've heard very great things from users of both, but I don't have much hands on experience with either, but I may start looking at them as options if Cubase doesn't get it's act together.
As for audio editing and as a mixing environment, I'm sorry but Pro Tools does rule the roost. And with the modern systems, it is by far and away better sounding than Cubase. Although some of that is down to the fact that there are a collection of very serious high end plugins that are only available on that platform.
The way I run my sessions is to have cuase & Pro Tools running at the same time synched with timecode and pipe the midi from cubase into VSTis / RTAS instruments in Pro Tools. So I don't really have any audio mixing going on in cubase.
I tried doing i all in cubase but it never gelled properly for me. I tried sequencing in Pro Tools and it never gelled either. The near perfect Audio workflow that Pro Tools has doesn't translate well to MIDI, it works, but it's just slow and fiddly for composing.
Hence by running both I get the best of both worlds.
To sum up, pick a tool, work with it until you hit it's limitations (And you are sure they're not YOUR limitations) and then don't be afraid to switch should you need to. |
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