Originally posted by cdzromm
because they dont blow themselves up and then blow firecrackers and cheer about it in the streets
Yeah, they use tanks, bulldozers, automatics, hellicopters, and f-16s instead.
George Smiley
quote:
Originally posted by cdzromm
because they dont blow themselves up and then blow firecrackers and cheer about it in the streets
No they have a nation's military to do it for them.
Tho they do have celebrations for Baruch Goldstein every year...care to tell me why if they are so different from the other side's terrorists?
Fir3start3r
Just love how this has turned into a chicken and egg argument when there is none.
The truth is caught on video. EOD.
venomX
quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Just love how this has turned into a chicken and egg argument when there is none.
The truth is caught on video. EOD.
I for one am not denying what is there. To solve a problem though, it is crucial to understand where it came from and how it developed. It would be meaningless to try and deny that what is shown in the video is happening. This is however a discussion forum, and discussing the origins of this problem is relevant to the topic.
Fir3start3r
quote:
Originally posted by venomX
I for one am not denying what is there. To solve a problem though, it is crucial to understand where it came from and how it developed. It would be meaningless to try and deny that what is shown in the video is happening. This is however a discussion forum, and discussing the origins of this problem is relevant to the topic.
Why is it critical?
I can almost guarantee that everybody knows the answer (or at least partially) and that wouldn't change a thing.
It certainly hasn't for over 50 years, why should it magically stop now?
Is our society that ignorant of responsibility that they don't even recognize it in others when they do something wrong?
Why does it always have to be that someone has to point the finger somewhere else when the truth is looking them straight in the eye? (or in the mirror for that matter).
I don't know what's worse, not taking responsibility and always blaming someone else, or the person supporting them because they believe they're not to blame either even though the facts show that they are wrong.
Victimhood is a disease that needs to be discussed...
What is 'Victimhood'?
quote:
The victim's basic stance is that he or she:
1. Is not responsible for what happened.
2. Is always morally right.
3. Is not accountable.
4. Is forever entitled to sympathy.
5. Is justified in feeling moral indignation for being wronged.
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Yeah, they use tanks, bulldozers, automatics, hellicopters, and f-16s instead.
Which all seem to be targetting specific suspects, as opposed to the rockets fired from gaza into Israel with no specific target and the self-bombers with no specific victims (but rather a random public crowd) to kill.
While I watched the video I couldn't help but to think how cool the song sounded. My mom used to take me Israeli folk dancing and there were a lot of cool Arabic songs played there too.
Q5echo
quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Why is it critical?
I can almost guarantee that everybody knows the answer (or at least partially) and that wouldn't change a thing.
It certainly hasn't for over 50 years, why should it magically stop now?
Is our society that ignorant of responsibility that they don't even recognize it in others when they do something wrong?
Why does it always have to be that someone has to point the finger somewhere else when the truth is looking them straight in the eye? (or in the mirror for that matter).
I don't know what's worse, not taking responsibility and always blaming someone else, or the person supporting them because they believe they're not to blame either even though the facts show that they are wrong.
Victimhood is a disease that needs to be discussed...
What is 'Victimhood'?
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Why is it critical?
I can almost guarantee that everybody knows the answer (or at least partially) and that wouldn't change a thing.
It certainly hasn't for over 50 years, why should it magically stop now?
Is our society that ignorant of responsibility that they don't even recognize it in others when they do something wrong?
Why does it always have to be that someone has to point the finger somewhere else when the truth is looking them straight in the eye? (or in the mirror for that matter).
I don't know what's worse, not taking responsibility and always blaming someone else, or the person supporting them because they believe they're not to blame either even though the facts show that they are wrong.
Victimhood is a disease that needs to be discussed...
What is 'Victimhood'?
Your post represents all that's wrong with the US's and other countries foreign policy. You think these people are like this by nature? Or did they become like this due to certain circumstances? If you don't believe they are inherently like this then knowing why they became like this is critical to solving any situation. Saying that 'oh the problem is right there, they are brainwashing they're kids' leads to 'lets stop them from brainwashing them'. But that doesn't solve anything in the long run does it? You stop them from brainwashing they're kids, they'll come up with some other strategy.
On 'Victimhood', it's the same thing. People are usually victims of circumstance. Not to say that they're decisions don't count, but it is pretty well established that circumstances have more to do with decision making than internal dispositions. So if you are to evaluate someone's behavior the circumstances are crucial to understanding why that person behaved that way.
In light of this, I state my point again, knowing why these people (in the middle east) became this way will lead to better solutions. You say, people have known why for many years. I say, the foreign policy of many a country, including the US (even when you say they know the reasons behind the struggle) do not take into account those reasons.
M.Johan
Fir3start3r
Zionism Terrorism is worse ;)
Watch people
Q5echo
quote:
Originally posted by venomX
You think these people are like this by nature?
yes.
quote:
Or did they become like this due to certain circumstances?
yes.
it's not either/or
quote:
Saying that 'oh the problem is right there, they are brainwashing they're kids' leads to 'lets stop them from brainwashing them'.
i don't think anyone serious is saying "let's stop them from brainwashing" serious people know it's much more complicated than the simplistic terms you are laying out.
quote:
You stop them from brainwashing they're kids, they'll come up with some other strategy.
agree, b/c this is about the the ultimate destruction of Israel. this is about pure genocide. in addition, it's about the Arab indifference towards Palestinians and a much broader problem of Islamic fascism and all the garbage that goes along with it.
quote:
In light of this, I state my point again, knowing why these people (in the middle east) became this way will lead to better solutions.
WE'RE ALL EARS:)
Fir3start3r
quote:
Originally posted by M.Johan
Fir3start3r
Zionism Terrorism is worse ;)
Watch people
I didn't realize this was a contest...:crazy:
venomX
quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
yes.
yes.
it's not either/or
Indeed, it is not either/or. I do ascribe more importance to situational factors when it comes to their current behavior. Saying that these people are inherently violent is repeating the mistake made many times in the past, for history has seen the slaughter of many 'barbarians'.
quote:
i don't think anyone serious is saying "let's stop them from brainwashing" serious people know it's much more complicated than the simplistic terms you are laying out.
To the best of my knowledge I can not think of US foreign policy that is more complex than that. Yes, the US blundered into a war in Iraq, bu the first steps it took when reconstructing the country where all wrong. Where were the medical facilities, schools, churches? Where was the support for moderates? Where was the direct aid to families, communities? Instead your government tried to erect an government right away, compromised by people that were inexperienced and wary by years of violent repression. All the plans, all the policies that you're country has directed towards this region have been simplistic. And my point is that this simplicity is caused by a lack of understanding of how poverty, ignorance and desperation have shaped the world view of these people.
quote:
agree, b/c this is about the the ultimate destruction of Israel. this is about pure genocide. in addition, it's about the Arab indifference towards Palestinians and a much broader problem of Islamic fascism and all the garbage that goes along with it.
That is the easy exit. You accuse me of oversimplifying ideas, and yet here you are saying that the whole problem in the middle east is about the extermination of Israel. This sole idea corroborates my point above. Most of your country's populace have no idea of the complex scenario that has lead to the current problems in the middle east. Note, that even though we are limiting our discussion to the middle east, poverty, hunger and desperation are creating movements such as those present in Palestine in other places. Islam is just a convenient vehicle in a more complex struggle by oppressed people around the world.
As a side note, I will completely acknowledge that there are those on the extreme end i.e. those that are not related to anti oppression movements but hold extreme interpretations of the Koran. I am not however talking about that group of people, but of those that are fighting (as many in palestine) against oppression.
quote:
WE'RE ALL EARS:)
Refer to my above post for some ideas. It is a complex situation. I do not deny that some use of force may be useful. The problem is that the use of force is not being followed through with measures that will help empower these people so that they can take charge of they're own future. Direct aid to communities is one route not often travelled. Instead of dishing out money to government or organizations, support could be given to individual communities. Contingencies could be added to particular aid. Educational and medical projects are also of high importance. I do not intend to develop a comprehensive plan on how to solve this situation, as I am neither a citizen or politician of your country. I do believe that there is something to be learned about the circumstances of these people. There is something to be learned in acknowledging they're suffering and the injustice committed by your countries policy's and other country's policies against them.
