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Huge bomb found in London (pg. 4)
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
These individuals and organisations say the same after every incident because if they don't everyone wants to know why every Muslim in the country isn't speaking out against Islamic extremism. It obviously hasn't had much effect in the past and I doubt it will make any difference now |
so what you are saying that UK Muslims are just white washing their religion as it pertains to the present atrocities against civilized society? Are these groups just speaking out in vain cause the UK Muslim approves of such actions?? |
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| Purple |
Man!! Two of the best contributers and intelligent posters banned in one thread in one day.. thats sad.
I just want to say is that metalgear and emc you both will be missed and remembered by many of us. You have left legacy behind, which will always be with us and will show path to these other nerds in here for real freedom.
God bless you all. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
Man!! Two of the best contributers and intelligent posters banned in one thread in one day.. thats sad.
I just want to say is that metalgear and emc you both will be missed and remembered by many of us. You have left legacy behind, which will always be with us and will show path to these other nerds in here for real freedom.
God bless you all. |
and you are next....
those two just got caught up in the heat of the moment, well at least EMC, metalgear is another story... ;) |
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| Omega_M |
| It is safe to say that Purple is nothing more than a tr0ll. His posts invariably rub you the wrong way. And he seems to do that on purpose. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_M
It is safe to say that Purple is nothing more than a tr0ll. His posts invariably rub you the wrong way. |
ya you are right and with that... ignore I shall
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
so what you are saying that UK Muslims are just white washing their religion as it pertains to the present atrocities against civilized society? Are these groups just speaking out in vain cause the UK Muslim approves of such actions?? |
Not so much even that, see the problem is in England the civil libertarians who keep wandering around gormlessly in their P-C wonderland without their feet ever touching the ground while happy fairy's will sprinkle magical peace over the whole country the next morning and convince everyone that it's all apples.
The reality is that there are islamist movements who are actively seeking to destroy the west and all we get from the moderate muslims is lip service and the vast majority of muslim leaders decline to denounce attacks on western countries. The people that do these attacks rarely have a political motivation which is where it sometimes seems focused, they do it because it's a secular or religious ideology which makes them want to do it.
They don't care what the foreign policy is.
They certainly don't care about anything happening in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia in so much as it has nothing to do with their day to day lives living where they are.
Shmuel Bar-
Islamism is not a
"consequence of political and socioeconomic factors alone"
"the centrality of the religious culture that allows it to flourish"
Is because Islamic leaders keep issuing fatwa's on the west.
He's an interesting person but I'm not so sure about all his writing, it's a pretty heavy read and he tends to waffle.
But, unlike the civil libertarians, at least he's looking at the source of the problem rather than denying the existence of a religious war against the west.
Libertarians and islamists alike will hate the guy :)
In some ways it reminded me of the same set of libertarians and pacifists prior to WW2 who where in denial about other forms of fascism which where moving to seek the destruction of that temporary bit of democracy and liberty after WW1.
All in all though it probably gets more of a focus than it deserves at this point, you'll get maybe a 1000 people a year die globally from terrorist attacks and we'll get how many that die from car accidents and heart disease? So in a sense the libertarians and pacifists are right, a personal threat to your own safety is unlikely, but it would be completely ignorant to consider the threat from radical muslims as being nothing more than lip service either. |
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| Jackson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_M
It is safe to say that Purple is nothing more than a tr0ll. His posts invariably rub you the wrong way. And he seems to do that on purpose. |
Nah, he was just never loved as a child. |
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| Purple |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
so what you are saying that UK Muslims are just white washing their religion as it pertains to the present atrocities against civilized society? Are these groups just speaking out in vain cause the UK Muslim approves of such actions?? |
No the UK Muslim population certainly does not approve such actions. It is a tiny fraction. But my point is, why should all the UK's Muslims condemn these attacks? They didn't do it or agree with it. The vast majority of people in this country don't care about politics. They just wanna keep their head down, do their 9-5 job and enjoy themselves at the weekend. Everyone on here is politically minded or we wouldn't be here, but we are not representative of any of our nationalities in that respect. UK Muslims are no different to the rest of the British. And just because some Muslim commits a bad deed it does not mean it is representative of the entire Muslim population. Every single Christian in the world doesn't condemn when a Christian does a bad deed, and when a crime is committed in a community every single person in that community does not come out and hunt the criminal down.
Basically, UK Muslims are pretty much the same as the rest of the British and therefore we should expect any more, or any less from them. They are probably more religious by proportion to the Christians but this is quickly changing as the generations go by (the Muslim youth is probably not much more religious than the White youth).
However, Muslim leaders should speak out but I'm not sure how much influence they have over the extremists hence me saying earlier I don't think it will change much.
When we come across these British Muslim extremists, we seem to fall into the trap of believing that the Muslim community can help oust them, but the fact is, whilst ever we align ourselves with American Middle East policy these characters will just keep popping up.
(Not that I am blaming their radicalism on America or the UK, but their foreign policy is a contributing factor and must be part of the solution, if our governments really care about a solution...) |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
When we come across these British Muslim extremists, we seem to fall into the trap of believing that the Muslim community can help oust them, but the fact is, whilst ever we align ourselves with American Middle East policy these characters will just keep popping up.
(Not that I am blaming their radicalism on America or the UK, but their foreign policy is a contributing factor and must be part of the solution, if our governments really care about a solution...) |
They aren't political.
If they where political, they'd be doing what the IRA, PLO and other groups would do in the past, which is to issue demands, warnings and then blow something up with a bit of property damage and minimum danger to human life.
Political groups realise it's really not in their best interests to be killing people who might listen, scare them, make a bang and fuss which will get some press for the message to be said, but that's it.
This, is theological.
What that theological message being sent is that it's good to kill westerners and non-muslim countrymen, women and their kids as a way of establishing Sharia law where they live because the liberal, democratic process of law is an antithesis to that as much as fascism is.
And sadly for the UK, they're just not very fussy about who lives there and who will not cause this kind of activity. They've made this nice long line about not pressuring minority groups to conform to existing standards in-country when they move there as it's seen to be politically incorrect. Fair enough I suppose, but there's a limit that line should be extended too, otherwise they're going use it to their advantage, to loop it over your head, kick out the chair and leave you twitching from it because it's the perfect weapon to use against pacifists and moderates.
Their cultural norm to be accepting of anything based on the fact it's wrong to pressure people to assimilate as they respect their beliefs, all this falls down as we've seen when the politically correct pacifists make these to protect the minorities from extreme vilification. Rather than doing what they should as part of the democratic process where the majority has the say to make the laws as they see fit to conform to their existing cultural norm. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
They aren't political.
If they where political, they'd be doing what the IRA, PLO and other groups would do in the past, which is to issue demands, warnings and then blow something up with a bit of property damage and minimum danger to human life.
Political groups realise it's really not in their best interests to be killing people who might listen, scare them, make a bang and fuss which will get some press for the message to be said, but that's it.
This, is theological.
What that theological message being sent is that it's good to kill westerners and non-muslim countrymen, women and their kids as a way of establishing Sharia law where they live because the liberal, democratic process of law is an antithesis to that as much as fascism is. |
That your expert opinion on every form of terrorism there's ever been is it?! Well it's wrong. It is political, it is as political as any other form of terrorism (in fact, very rarely is terrorism committed for any other reason).
The aim of these British-terrorists is to change British foreign policy in the Middle East, and yes, killing as many people is one way they think will achieve that aim. In their minds, if enough people die, and if enough British begin to blame UK Foreign Policy for the deaths instead of the terrorists and the effect is the government pulls out of Iraq for example, then that is highly political.
Of course they are also theological. But there is no difference when it comes to terrorism between theology and ideology. Both are motivating forces and all the other terrorist groups you mentioned above were used ideology to motivate their troops to achieve their political aims.
| quote: | And sadly for the UK, they're just not very fussy about who lives there and who will not cause this kind of activity. They've made this nice long line about not pressuring minority groups to conform to existing standards in-country when they move there as it's seen to be politically incorrect. Fair enough I suppose, but there's a limit that line should be extended too, otherwise they're going use it to their advantage, to loop it over your head, kick out the chair and leave you twitching from it because it's the perfect weapon to use against pacifists and moderates.
Their cultural norm to be accepting of anything based on the fact it's wrong to pressure people to assimilate as they respect their beliefs, all this falls down as we've seen when the politically correct pacifists make these to protect the minorities from extreme vilification. Rather than doing what they should as part of the democratic process where the majority has the say to make the laws as they see fit to conform to their existing cultural norm. |
Oh go on then, how do we force people to become more "British"? |
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| Lilith |
Oh come on, you must see some of the muslim communities in the UK becoming more insular and less inclined to interact with the rest of the country? I mean even on a micro level my little cousin in Derby tells me that she can't have some of her friends at school come over because she's not a muslim, because their parent's wont let them.
These attacks when Brown takes the reins and distances the UK from the US middle east activity, they're not going to stop when we pull all the troops out and even now, when we are pulling troops out, they're still running bombs in. Not on politicians, not on army bases or government buildings or part of the military infrastructure.
They blow up public transport which is full of the public!
They don't say as their final words "free my _____ in _____"
They say, "God is great" pull the trigger and murder people without warning or notice.
Make no mistake, it's about god and its most definitely about a theological mindset which tells them to love death and causing death because they'll go to heaven killing westerners
| quote: | | Oh go on then, how do we force people to become more "British"? |
A start might be convincing them that they have a legal right to vote, not a carte-blanc right to kill as a first alternative...
I might not have a piece of published paper to deem me an 'expert' but most likely neither do you. |
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