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UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats (pg. 3)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
It is a tactic in diplomacy which means "we mean business" |
No, its a tactic called "F*ck you, Russian government" while the Russian government has nothing to do here. Constitution is Constitution that Putin SWORE to protect, and this is merely a businessman-to-businessman dispute that should have been handled in a smaller court with lesser media frenzy, but we all know who started the frenzy here and the point of it ... and somehow involved the Russian government, too ... you know that the Russian government cant extradite its citizens, WHY OH WHY THEN DO YOU create this political havoc? Seriously, are you that naive to believe that it will work? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
OK, so lets say British do have the proof, then they should then try to prosecute Lugovoi in Russia, which they HAVE ALREADY REFUSED TO DO. So that doesnt leave us with much, does it? |
The refuse to let Lugovoi be tried in Russia because according to EU and UN reports, the Russian legal system is flawed and suspect and therefore, it would not be a fair trial.
| quote: | | Russian Constitution, clearly specifies that no Russian national can be extradited abroad. Just like UK's. Just like the European Convention specifies. Its pretty dam obvious and old law. UK knows it. But they are playing a political game here. |
Don't be daft. The whole point of extradition is that your citizens can be sent to the country they committed the crime in to face trial. There would be no point otherwise.
And let us look at what the Russia constitution actually says:
| quote: | Article 63 of the Russian Constitution:
The extradition of persons persecuted for their political views or any actions (or inaction), which are not qualified as criminal by the law of the Russian Federation, to other states shall not be allowed in the Russian Federation |
Unless you are now going to tell us all that murder is not a crime in Russia then I suggest you stop these idiotic arguments that it is against the Russian Constitution to extradite Lugovoi...
| quote: | | If they had the clear evidence, then they would have "leaked" it to the media already, they're not talking about, so its pretty dam weak. Thats why they refuse to go to court in Russia. |
What are you on about "leak it to the media"?! Where do you think this is, Russia?! We have laws and so do the media. The CPS can't "leak" criminal evidence to the media and the media would be breaking the law and would face prosecution if they printed it... |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
No, its a tactic called "F*ck you, Russian government" while the Russian government has nothing to do here. Constitution is Constitution that Putin SWORE to protect, and this is merely a businessman-to-businessman dispute that should have been handled in a smaller court with lesser media frenzy, but we all know who started the frenzy here and the point of it ... and somehow involved the Russian government, too ... you know that the Russian government cant extradite its citizens, WHY OH WHY THEN DO YOU create this political havoc? Seriously, are you that naive to believe that it will work? |
See my post above re: Russian extradition that makes your quote above sound rather amusing |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
See my post above re: Russian extradition that makes your quote above sound rather amusing |
But then the British refuse to extradite Berezovky in the first place (who is not a British national), and expect Russia to break its own laws and extradite Lugovoi? Come on, man, you're not that naive ... plus Russia didnt expell British diplomats, and didnt go around UN and EU telling them to force UK to extradite Berezovsky now, did they? Russia is much smarter, but UK just cant accept the laws and to be bossy and intimidating they expect to be granted what they want, so they're pushing with this propaganda campaign to make Russia an enemy. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
But then the British refuse to extradite Berezovky in the first place (who is not a British national), and expect Russia to break its own laws and extradite Lugovoi? Come on, man, you're not that naive ... plus Russia didnt expell British diplomats, and didnt go around UN and EU telling them to force UK to extradite Berezovsky now, did they? Russia is much smarter, but UK just cant accept the laws and to be bossy and intimidating they expect to be granted what they want, so they're pushing with this propaganda campaign to make Russia an enemy. |
A few points:
There is no campaign to make Russia an enemy, why would there be?
Berezovsky was granted political asylum in the UK, meaning under UK law it is illegal to extradite him
Lugovoi is wanted in the UK for murder, and unless murder is not a crime in Russia then it is perfectly legal for Russia to extradite him |
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| George Smiley |
| I should also point out that Berezovsky has been warned by the British government that his status as a political refugee will be re-evaluated should he keep making inflammatory statements against the Russian government, and also faced a police investigation following his comments that he was funding a coup against Putin |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
A few points:
There is no campaign to make Russia an enemy, why would there be?
Berezovsky was granted political asylum in the UK, meaning under UK law it is illegal to extradite him
Lugovoi is wanted in the UK for murder, and unless murder is not a crime in Russia then it is perfectly legal for Russia to extradite him |
To tell you the truth, under the European Convention that Russia also signed, if UK will present substantial evidence, then Lugovoi can be tried in UK. I have nothing against that if it was the case. A swap of Berezovsky for Lugovoi is pretty reasonable, and I think if UK had extradited him long ago, today it would have been easier to get an extradition of Lugovoi. Because otherwise its obvious of the British intentions here. Too bad the evidence is very weak, and the polonium has been found pretty much everywhere, even in Berezovsky's office and British embassy in Moscow (WTF?).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I should also point out that Berezovsky has been warned by the British government that his status as a political refugee will be re-evaluated should he keep making inflammatory statements against the Russian government, and also faced a police investigation following his comments that he was funding a coup against Putin |
Good, I am all for Britain and/or Brasil prosecuting that criminal for good, because in Russia it will also be a political victory if he was tried there. I wonder why UK officials are not doing so. Murderers and criminals dont make good cases for asylum, because they're escaping justice and conveniently using asylum as an excuse to get away with their crimes. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
To tell you the truth, under the European Convention that Russia also signed, if UK will present substantial evidence, then Lugovoi can be tried in UK. I have nothing against that if it was the case. |
Yes but you're not the President of Russia, Putin is, and he does not want an ex-KGB operative in prison in the UK that is why Russia will not extradite Lugovoi
| quote: | | A swap of Berezovsky for Lugovoi is pretty reasonable |
Erm no it's not. I have told you time and time again it is ILLEGAL for the UK to extradite someone who has been granted political asylum. Whereas Lugovoi is wanted for murder, nothing political, so no, it is not "reasonable" |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Yes but you're not the President of Russia, Putin is, and he does not want an ex-KGB operative in prison in the UK that is why Russia will not extradite Lugovoi
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At one point there were hundreds of thousands of KGB people ... I would be very surprised if there's not at least a few in Western jails right about now ...
| quote: |
Erm no it's not. I have told you time and time again it is ILLEGAL for the UK to extradite someone who has been granted political asylum. Whereas Lugovoi is wanted for murder, nothing political, so no, it is not "reasonable" |
And once again I would like to let you know that Russian laws also forbids extradition of its citizens ... come on, we're going in circles, you've exhausted your point already, try something else. And it is political, because British government and lawmakers are heavily all over this case. Thats political. Dont need to be a scientist to figure that one out - this case is political. Because if it was just murder, we would probably find out luckily about in corner of the last page of the newspaper. But when your leaders and lawmakers all talk about it, thats political ... come on, stop going in circles ... you've exhausted your point just give it up. Russia's not the enemy here, and we're not agitating here, its UK thats threatening Russia by issuing demands, ultimatums, kicking out diplomats ... thats so childish. And now they pass a law making it more difficult for Russian government officials to travel to UK. What a bunch of sissies ...
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
And once again I would like to let you know that Russian laws also forbids extradition of its citizens ... come on, we're going in circles, you've exhausted your point already, try something else. And it is political, because British government and lawmakers are heavily all over this case. Thats political. Dont need to be a scientist to figure that one out - this case is political. Because if it was just murder, we would probably find out luckily about in corner of the last page of the newspaper. But when your leaders and lawmakers all talk about it, thats political ... come on, stop going in circles ... you've exhausted your point just give it up. Russia's not the enemy here, and we're not agitating here, its UK thats threatening Russia by issuing demands, ultimatums, kicking out diplomats ... thats so childish. And now they pass a law making it more difficult for Russian government officials to travel to UK. What a bunch of sissies ... |
You clearly do not know what "political" means in this context. The CRIME committed must be political for extradition to not apply. Examples of a political crime are if someone is a member of a banned political party. Or if a crime committed in one country is not recognised by another. For example, it is not legal to extradite someone from the UK to Germany for denying the Holocaust because that is not against the law in the UK.
Murder, however, is illegal in every country (as far as I'm aware) and is NOT a political crime.
You cannot say Lugovoi cannot be extradited to the UK because it is "political" because it clearly is not... |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You clearly do not know what "political" means in this context. The CRIME committed must be political for extradition to not apply. Examples of a political crime are if someone is a member of a banned political party. Or if a crime committed in one country is not recognised by another. For example, it is not legal to extradite someone from the UK to Germany for denying the Holocaust because that is not against the law in the UK.
Murder, however, is illegal in every country (as far as I'm aware) and is NOT a political crime.
You cannot say Lugovoi cannot be extradited to the UK because it is "political" because it clearly is not... |
It was made a political case, which is my point. British refuse to co-operate with Russia, and dont even want to prosecute Lugovoi in Russia ... extradition is not going to happen to a citizen who knows he is not going to be fairly prosecuted. And he has protection under the Constitution which he is using to give himself a fair trial, in Russia. So the Russian government is not involved here, and there was no need for UK to make this a political scandal. So this is political, a murder turned into political game. Murders can be political, and this is a political murder so therefore Lugovoi has the legal right for Constitutional protection. British should try him in Russia then, but they dont want that now, do they?
If it wasnt political, then the British government, officials and such would not make wild accusations and claims and instead this was only a prosecutor's attempt to extradite Lugovoi. But this is not the case. The whole British government is part of this agenda, and therefore its a politically motivated murder for which Lugovoi claims he was set up, and he wants a fair trial in Russia, instead of knowing how easy it will be for him convicted in UK. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
It was made a political case, which is my point |
You really don't understand do you? The crime has to be political. Murder is not a political crime it is MURDER |
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