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scientology (pg. 6)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
People can believe what they want, |
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it's just grossly unfair to inflict it on other people |
honestly, i really dont think you can reconcile these statements. |
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| Lilith |
| Can you expand on that? Not sure what you're about. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Can you expand on that? Not sure what you're about. |
it is impossible for people to have these beliefs without inflicting it on those around them. im speaking generally here obviously, there are exceptions- just not where they count for much.
there are so many damned ways for people to hate each other, i dont see why we need to invent any more! |
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| Lilith |
Well, now that come down to a distinct lack of personal accountability and moral freedom when you're divorced from having your very conscience telling you "it's in the name of or will of god rather than my own hands guiding my destiny and those around me"
Dunno about spiritual freedom, freedom from guilt perhaps which lets some people rest easily at night.
Way I figure it, I've got my own ideas and other people have their own and provided no one gets hurt or upset because of them, its fine. We might not agree but that's their prerogative and I'm not going to knock your nose out of joint because you believe in god or martians, or whatever! Heck, I'll hedge a 10,000-1 bet they aren't showing up tomorrow to save or damn us any time soon :haha:
I've said it before a few times, I equate organised religion as very much the antithesis of democracy and libertarian forms of government find things like totalitarian regimes and fascism. We find it easy in our western, somewhat spoilt lifestyles now to forget the distance of church and state but it wasn't always like that and it was quite terrible for a lot of people who just wanted to be themselves without both church and state telling them how to lead their lives, condemning and demonising those who dared to try an alternative from the religious norm.
500 years from now, people are going to look back on us, assuming we haven't wiped ourselves out in a 'vigorous' debate about who's invisible god has a tail or not and they're going to compare us much the same way we view Spain under the inquisition is seen today.
Furtive, power hungry people hunting down the enemies of the state and god, rooting out deviants that pose a threat to life, liberty and hold the key to our civilisations damnation because they hate everything we represent. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
id like moral hazard's input on this one :) |
And so you shall...
Distinguishing a cult from a religion can be a difficult task as the two have very similar, moreover, the terms religion and cult are often misused for connotative reasons. A religion, in essence, is a dogmatic system of belief and perscribed practices based on faith in something that cannot be proven. Generally, religions will contain a method of worship in devotion to a deity(or deities), who's example or directives are used as the basis for a moral code or laws governing behaviour. Cults are also a dogmatic system of belief and perscribed practice based on faith in something that cannot be proven. Generally, cults will also contain a method of worship in devotion to a deity/deities; however, they will also contain methods of worship in devotion to objects or leaders that may be used as the basis for a moral code or laws governing behaviour. The key here is that the deity is replaced by either an object or individual as the basis for authority and object of worship. The difference can be very subtle or glaring and quite often religion and cults will intertwine.
A good example of a glaring difference between cult and religion can be seen in the Branch Davidian cult. This cult group (while based on christianity) worshiped a single person as a diety and that individual was held as the authority on everything, unfallable, unquestionable. Because David Coresh became the only source for believe, the sole holder of authority and the object of worship, it is safe to say this group was a cult.
Many would argue that the Roman Catholic Church is also a cult in that it holds the pope to be an ultimate authority. In many ways the RC could be viewed as a cult, however, such a view would be based on only a superficial understanding of the church (as a deeper exploration of the church doctrine reveals that the pope's authority is only absolute if his missives are valid.... they can only be valid if the chuch, ie. followers of christ, accept it as such). While the RC church as a whole cannot be considered a cult, there are many sects within catholocism that can be. There are a multitude of catholic sects that have a fierce devotion to various saints, objects considered holy, plots of land, even persons thought to be prophets, which could be considered cults, as they base their practice not on the faith but on the individual person or object. Historically, the Knight's Templor are possibly Catholocism's largest and most famous cult.
Another good example of a subtle cult would be the jewish sect found in Ethiopia, unfortunately I cannot recall their name. Rather then worshiping Yahweh these jews worship an object they believe to be the arc of the covenent. Many of the generally accepted practices of Judeism are abandoned in favour of devotion to the arc. In worshiping this object rather then the diety of Yahweh they become a cult within the larger religion.
With regard to scientology specifically, I would deem it to be a religion rather then a cult. Many people characterize scientology as a cult because it is very guarded and very aggressive in its recruitment of potential followers but this is a misunderstanding of what a cult is and the use of the term is an attempt to evoke a connotative response rather then due to it's dictive accuracy. Scientology has a perscribed set of practices (although less rigid then most religions) based on faith in an unprovable position. The do not have a system of belief based on the authority of a person or object, which is essentially the dividing point between cult and religion.
Alas, thanks to the general watering down of the English language the line between cult and religion becomes blurrier with each passing day. For most people it comes down to connotation... if they believe a system of believe to be insideous, toxic, or invalid they deem it a cult. In truth, the similarities between cults and religions are far more numerous then the differences... so much so that I would speculate all religions have cults within them. |
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| Spike |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
to me, supporting scientology's attitudes to professional mental healthcare is kinda like praising hitler for the autobahns ;) |
+100000000
couldn't agree more with this statement |
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| Spike |
| with regards to what moral has said i think its pretty ridiculous to go as far to classify Scientology as a bonafied religion. I mean based on SO many articles, reportings and just overall suspicion that Scientology IS in fact a cult kinda makes me a little suspiscios. not to mention just how ing insane their followers are and the scare tactics and legal action they maliciously use against 'wogs' (their term for anybody who is not a Scientology's!) is pretty outrageous. I mean we can argue til we're blue in the face about them fitting the technical definition...but i know thats a load of crap. I trust most people would come to the same conclusion based on what they see and feel for themselves. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spike
with regards to what moral has said i think its pretty ridiculous to go as far to classify Scientology as a bonafied religion. I mean based on SO many articles, reportings and just overall suspicion that Scientology IS in fact a cult kinda makes me a little suspiscios. not to mention just how ing insane their followers are and the scare tactics and legal action they maliciously use against 'wogs' (their term for anybody who is not a Scientology's!) is pretty outrageous. I mean we can argue til we're blue in the face about them fitting the technical definition...but i know thats a load of crap. I trust most people would come to the same conclusion based on what they see and feel for themselves. |
While I agree with you that they are very zeallous in their convictions and very protectionist that does not make them a cult. It may even be correct to say that it is an insideous belief system, maybe even an out and out fraud perpertrated by the elite within the "church"; however, none of that would qualify it as a cult. To those that believe the "church" is valid, follow it's teachings and practices it is a religion. Truth or validity do not make something a religion, faith and adhearance do.
I think it should be pointed out that no person should ever make a decision or take a definitive position based exclusively on articles by journalists. Jounalists are not theologists and rarely are they even scholars. A jounalistic review of anything should at very best be taken to be a starting point for further study as jounalists rarely do exhaustive studies and their publications are summaries. |
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| Spike |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
While I agree with you that they are very zeallous in their convictions and very protectionist that does not make them a cult. It may even be correct to say that it is an insideous belief system, maybe even an out and out fraud perpertrated by the elite within the "church"; however, none of that would qualify it as a cult. To those that believe the "church" is valid, follow it's teachings and practices it is a religion. Truth or validity do not make something a religion, faith and adhearance do.
I think it should be pointed out that no person should ever make a decision or take a definitive position based exclusively on articles by journalists. Jounalists are not theologists and rarely are they even scholars. A jounalistic review of anything should at very best be taken to be a starting point for further study as jounalists rarely do exhaustive studies and their publications are summaries. |
well of course it should be taken as a starting point, but when people try to 'study' further it seems they are threatened, harassed, bullied, followed, spied on, in some cases assaulted, sued etc...come on now.
my gut tells me they're sick, twisted and deranged and in MY dictionary they fit the definition pretty well |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spike
my gut tells me they're sick, twisted and deranged and in MY dictionary they fit the definition pretty well |
You fall right into what I said earlier about connotative rather then dictive meaning. You consider them a cult because you find them to be unsavory.... that does not make it a cult; however, you're more comfortable saying that they are because cult implies evil in common use. It's kind of how people use the word fascist in place of authoritarian to cast a government in a negative light when in truth that government is in no way related to the political ideology that is fascism. |
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| Spike |
| the term cult is pretty subjective and leaves room for debate in my opinion. its like arguing about what is art; not everybody is going to agree and have the same opinion. and that is what is so scary in how scientolgists know this, and can manipulate and twist things in their favor |
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| nchs09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
however, they will also contain methods of worship in devotion to objects or leaders that may be used as the basis for a moral code or laws governing behaviour. The key here is that the deity is replaced by either an object or individual as the basis for authority and object of worship. The difference can be very subtle or glaring and quite often religion and cults will intertwine.
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the line isblurry as you said, et i find the destinction you are making lacking. religion also falls into that path no? the one quoted above. in lesser terms, but it does. |
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