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FAO: terrorists (pg. 5)
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
This is what drives me nuts!!! Who decided Iran is the be-all, end-all of evil? Sure, their regime sucks. Oppression is widespread. As it is in Belarus, where all political affiliation is banned and any ethnic enclaves in the country are brutally oppressed. As it is in North Korea, where starvation is used as a tool of the government. As it is in Sudan, where the regime carries out the systematic extermination of an entire region of people. As it is in Saudi Arabia, where laws regarding women and social rights are far more archaic than in Iran. As it is in Burma, where a brutal military junta is even today considering violence as a means of putting down civil discourse among religious monks. As it is in China, where the Uigher population is denied political affiliation or the right to upward mobility. As it is in Israel/Palestine, where women and children live in fear of Israeli tanks and helicopters or madmen with bombs strapped to their chests. As it is in Iraq, where private US military contractors gun down civilians. As it is in Zimbabwe, where the economy has ground to a halt due to government mismanagement. As it is in Mali, where US gunships are aiding a corrupt government in the persecution of nomadic tribesman who have formed a secession movement. As it is in the DRC, where paramilitary organizations with little compassion for human life maintain more control over regions of the country than the government in Kinshasha. As it is in Chad, where abundant oil revenue only pads the coffers of the elite few.
Oppression is everywhere, so don't for a minute act like Ahmadinejad (which, by the way, is easy enough to spell if you want to be taken seriously on the issue) has a freaking monopoly on evil in this world. Where is the talk of invading Zimbabwe to take down Mugabe? Sudan to take down Bashir? You are so selective of your target that it screams discrimination on some basis. Why, because Iran has oil? So does Sudan. Why, because Iran may be pursuing nuclear weapons? Pakistan and North Korea already have them, and they oppress their people sometimes to an even greater extent. Why, because Iran's human rights violations are particularly aggregious? Sadly, they aren't. Why, because the Iranian government presides over the persecution of groups of people? They do, but to a far lesser extent than in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Belarus, etc.
Iran has far greater good governance than a wide swath of the world. That may be hard for you to digest, but by most indicators it is true. There is relative stability, economic security for the wide majority of the population, freedom of expression for a growing number, and a growing moderate political base. Sure there are religious zealots with control over the country still. But that control is inexorably linked to their ability to show the Iranian people that they are needed to combat the US. And when we shout "death to Iran" in their faces we are playing right into their hands, establishing them as a necessary vigilant institution safeguarding Iranian security. So stop it.
Bottom line:
Give me a reasoned, ordered, logical explanation for why any free country should launch a preemptive war against Iran and I will listen to you. But stop with the "he's bad so he's evil so we should kill him routine," because if I wanted to hear logic so dimwitted, I would listen to the fundamentalist mullahs calling for Death to America. Same logic. |
I'm not going to bother trying to explain to you what is rather plain obvious. Calling Iran "Free" or "Democratic" is rather big stretch. I will agree with you that despite of what mass media would have you believe, substantial population in Iran does not favor the mulah-led government. I would also agree that Iran, as a nation, is not as "evil" as Bush would have us all believe. However, its leadership, hell-bent on de-stabilizing the region and actively participating in Middle-eastern affairs not concerning it is perhaps (and call me crazy) not really cool. I'm sure you'll have tons of examples to throw my way, to show how U.S. interferes in world affairs, etc. - however, I fail to see what greater good would be achieved by letting a government intent on (to quote your lovely Ahmadinejad) "Wiping Israel off the map" and calling for it's destruction, obtain a nuke.
Here's where the difference lies:
http://english.aljazeera.net/Englis...ArchiveId=15816
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/ne...17target=_blank
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/821548.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle2199281.ece
http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...&show_article=1
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter...ent_iran_c.html
http://regimechangeiniran.com/2006/...f-iranian-weap/
http://in.reuters.com/article/world...-29713620070925
and just to ballance it off, some opposing suggestions I happen to like:
http://www.imd.ch/research/challeng...0-07.cfm?bhcp=1 |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
This is what drives me nuts!!! Who decided Iran is the be-all, end-all of evil? Sure, their regime sucks. Oppression is widespread. As it is in Belarus, where all political affiliation is banned and any ethnic enclaves in the country are brutally oppressed. As it is in North Korea, where starvation is used as a tool of the government. As it is in Sudan, where the regime carries out the systematic extermination of an entire region of people. As it is in Saudi Arabia, where laws regarding women and social rights are far more archaic than in Iran. As it is in Burma, where a brutal military junta is even today considering violence as a means of putting down civil discourse among religious monks. As it is in China, where the Uigher population is denied political affiliation or the right to upward mobility. As it is in Israel/Palestine, where women and children live in fear of Israeli tanks and helicopters or madmen with bombs strapped to their chests. As it is in Iraq, where private US military contractors gun down civilians. As it is in Zimbabwe, where the economy has ground to a halt due to government mismanagement. As it is in Mali, where US gunships are aiding a corrupt government in the persecution of nomadic tribesman who have formed a secession movement. As it is in the DRC, where paramilitary organizations with little compassion for human life maintain more control over regions of the country than the government in Kinshasha. As it is in Chad, where abundant oil revenue only pads the coffers of the elite few.
Oppression is everywhere, so don't for a minute act like Ahmadinejad (which, by the way, is easy enough to spell if you want to be taken seriously on the issue) has a freaking monopoly on evil in this world. Where is the talk of invading Zimbabwe to take down Mugabe? Sudan to take down Bashir? You are so selective of your target that it screams discrimination on some basis. Why, because Iran has oil? So does Sudan. Why, because Iran may be pursuing nuclear weapons? Pakistan and North Korea already have them, and they oppress their people sometimes to an even greater extent. Why, because Iran's human rights violations are particularly aggregious? Sadly, they aren't. Why, because the Iranian government presides over the persecution of groups of people? They do, but to a far lesser extent than in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Belarus, etc.
Iran has far greater good governance than a wide swath of the world. That may be hard for you to digest, but by most indicators it is true. There is relative stability, economic security for the wide majority of the population, freedom of expression for a growing number, and a growing moderate political base. Sure there are religious zealots with control over the country still. But that control is inexorably linked to their ability to show the Iranian people that they are needed to combat the US. And when we shout "death to Iran" in their faces we are playing right into their hands, establishing them as a necessary vigilant institution safeguarding Iranian security. So stop it.
Bottom line:
Give me a reasoned, ordered, logical explanation for why any free country should launch a preemptive war against Iran and I will listen to you. But stop with the "he's bad so he's evil so we should kill him routine," because if I wanted to hear logic so dimwitted, I would listen to the fundamentalist mullahs calling for Death to America. Same logic. |
+7345723947289347
give the man a cookie
Do you even know that most Iranians love the United States, unlike citizens of other countries like Saudi Arabia? Do you even know Iran held a vigil for the victims of 9/11? |
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| Clovis |
War with Iran would effectively completely destroy any chance of democratic and reformist changes in the country.
We've ed up their attempts at democracy in the past, it led us to here....do we really want to do it again? |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
You can be smart and still not have a way with words, the reverse also applies (although less). But he reads Camus and tons of other great writers monthly, and it's just not possible to accomplish what he has managed in the white house without some serious smarts. Thats not praise, I think his record is horrible, but it is the truth. |
Really? Cause I've read that he isn't much of a reader and that most of his decisions are based on the opinions of a very select few. |
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| blacknoizybox |
did you know that THIS WORLD IS GOING STRAIGHT TO ING HELL WHERE WE ALL GONNA ING BURN
just thought you would like to know..:rolleyes:
so relax;) |
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| emc^2 |
f*ck, this thread spiraled quickly into PDD spin-off.
from Lee Bollinger's statement to Ahmadinejad:
Source: http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/202820.php
on so called freedom and democracy:
| quote: |
Iran hanged up 30 people this past July and August during a widely reported suppression of efforts to establish a more democratic society. Many of these executions were carried out in public view, a violation of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights, to which Iran is a party. These executions and others have coincided with a wider crackdown on student activists and academics accused of trying to foment a so-called "soft revolution." This has included jailing and forced retirement of scholars. As Dr. Esfandiari said in a broadcast interview since her release, she was held in solitary confinement for 105 days because the government believes that the United States is planning a velvet revolution in Iran.
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just one of the shades of sh!t. anywho. if I wanted a pdd-like discussion, I'd visit pdd. done with this thread, draw your own conclusions.
(p.s. yes, victory is yours. have a cookie - on me) |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by infinity HiGH
Really? Cause I've read that he isn't much of a reader and that most of his decisions are based on the opinions of a very select few. |
They release his book list every month, and he is reported to have tried to read as much as Rove, although Rove usually wins since he is a voracious reader.
Whether or not he understands or takes anything important from these books, is another story...also, the second part of your sentence is entirely correct. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
+7345723947289347
Do you even know that most Iranians love the United States, unlike citizens of other countries like Saudi Arabia? Do you even know Iran held a vigil for the victims of 9/11? |
Thank you. Sadly, that public respect for the US is starting to slip. It seems the Iranian people grow tired of being slandered by Western media.
And emc, if you want to talk about the destabilization of the Middle East, look no further than the residents at my location:
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
They release his book list every month, and he is reported to have tried to read as much as Rove, although Rove usually wins since he is a voracious reader.
Whether or not he understands or takes anything important from these books, is another story...also, the second part of your sentence is entirely correct. |
I have a seriously hard time believing that Bush understands a word of Camus, who is brilliant.
And is anyone else concerned that the President of the United States has more free time for reading literature than a lowly graduate student does? |
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| jupiterone |
| I just think it's absolute bull we didn't let the Iranian President place a wreathe at the Ground-Zero sight. Give me a ing break. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by jupiterone
I just think it's absolute bull we didn't let the Iranian President place a wreathe at the Ground-Zero sight. Give me a ing break. |
Well, didn't you know? He was the mastermind behind 9/11! It would simply be insensitive to let him honor the people he killed. |
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| Dyshein |
| I don't even understand that quote. What the hell is Pelly talking about? Can somebody translate it into english for me 0_o? |
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