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The <-/Scary Experiences Thread/-> (pg. 3)
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| Mr. Pubes |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
officers are held to higher account. |
they are?
Mr. Pubes |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Enlisted men and women should not be exercising judgment regading their orders, only on how to execute them. |
Okay, so (avoiding the well-worn Nazi examples) the soldiers who tortured political prisoners for the Soviet Union ought not to have exercised judgment over whether to inflict lots of pain on prisoners, only over the most efficient method by which to inflict it? |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| I must ask, in addition, what necessarily makes a military "officer's" orders any more sacrosanct than the commands of any old Mafia boss. Why should the simple fact that your employer is an agent of "the government" make an order more binding than it would be if he were a private individual? |
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| Zewad |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I must ask, in addition, what necessarily makes a military "officer's" orders any more sacrosanct than the commands of any old Mafia boss. Why should the simple fact that your employer is an agent of "the government" make an order more binding than it would be if he were a private individual? |
b/c enlisted swear to do so.. its law.. and its in writing that they will... and will go to jail if they dont... which is also in writing..
if a private individual does not do what his employer says he'll get fired but wont go to jail..
officers only swear to follow the constitution they do not swear to obey their superior officers... |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zewad
b/c enlisted swear to do so.. its law.. and its in writing that they will... and will go to jail if they dont... which is also in writing..
if a private individual does not do what his employer says he'll get fired but wont go to jail.. |
Well, that does make obedience more likely. What Moral Hazard seemed to be saying, though, was that being an employee of the military makes obedience more obligatory.
I tend to think that some ethical principles are higher even than that of obeying the people you have promised to obey. One of those principles would be not killing people who don't deserve to die, even if ordered to do so. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| And to head off anybody determined to misinterpret that: I am not saying that all of the soldiers in Iraq are killing people who don't deserve to die, or that they're evil, or anything of the sort. |
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| Zewad |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I tend to think that some ethical principles are higher even than that of obeying the people you have promised to obey. One of those principles would be not killing people who don't deserve to die, even if ordered to do so. |
ahh.. the what if game...
this particular situation just about never happens and might only do so in movies...
but since we are playing what if... i'll play along.. the Soldier can then not follow orders and not do the killing which then will be later investigated and sentenced accordingly,.... as would the officer for giving such order...
the officer is only allowed to give such order if immenent death is apparent to himself, his unit, or to any "friendlies",.. which would be obvious to the Soldier and if it isnt obvious then its not immenent...
lets say the impossible happens and we have a sick-o officer who orders his Soldier to kill some random dude for s and giggles...
enlisted Soldier says no... and they go back home... it would then be up to the officer to tell the situation to his superiors to punish him, but in doing so would ruin his own career and he'd go to jail... ok i'll play along some more... the officer does actually tell of this stupid feat and is punished for giving such an order... the Soldier would be written up for not obeying an officer and it'd go in his file and then he'd be on his merry way... (slap on wrist) while the officer would definitely go to jail... |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | | lets say the impossible happens and we have a sick-o officer who orders his Soldier to kill some random dude for s and giggles... |
Heh, impossible? I think you might want to reconsider the idea that such a thing is impossible, even for a democracy like the U.S.
The threat of jail time certainly makes compliance with such an order understandable, but I still don't think it makes it excusable (i.e. free of blame, as Moral Hazard originally put it). |
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| Jackson |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Heh, impossible? I think you might want to reconsider the idea that such a thing is impossible, even for a democracy like the U.S.
The threat of jail time certainly makes compliance with such an order understandable, but I still don't think it makes it excusable (i.e. free of blame, as Moral Hazard originally put it). |
Does this argument really even matter? |
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| Zewad |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Heh, impossible? I think you might want to reconsider the idea that such a thing is impossible, even for a democracy like the U.S.
The threat of jail time certainly makes compliance with such an order understandable, but I still don't think it makes it excusable (i.e. free of blame, as Moral Hazard originally put it). |
nothing is impossible.. but highly highly improbable... right though, it isnt an excuse to follow a ridiculous order... but there will be consequences for not doing so... minor ones..
if i was an enlisted man id definitely take a slap on the wrist and get written up over shooting an innocent man
but if the Soldier had no concious and followed orders to the T then it is the Soldier's duty to repeat the order back to the officer to be clear of such an order... if the officer repeated it to the Solider then the Soldier would be free of legal blame.... possibly not ethical or moral but legal yes.. |
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| Zewad |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jackson
Does this argument really even matter? |
nope... but its interesting...
does anything in the c0r ever matter?? |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jackson
Does this argument really even matter? |
Yes, actually. If people are willing to excuse anything as "just following orders," if they think that the excuse of the soldiers at the Nuremberg trials that they were "just doing their job" is an adequate one, quite a lot follows from that. |
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