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Do You Think There is a God ? (pg. 7)
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| Orbax |
| oh last thing. Im saying bring facts to the table and dont just state your opinion any more because this thread has progressed wayyyy beyond that hehe read the previous pages... got pretty in depth. So we are looking for something to battle about now. We already are debating the issue of God, so belief/non belief at this point can be summed up by your vote on the poll and the post isnt neccessary :) lets keep it fresh |
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| D_G |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
Congratulations. You win the most ignorant statement of the thread award. EVERYTHING ends up in wars. Religion is just a facet of man. MAN ends up in wars and so every facet of his being is brought into wars with him. Wars are fought over oil, gas, diamonds, drugs, and every other thing on this earth. And if you had a grave that you believed to be your fathers and you found a man defecating on it would you not be angry? This is a rhetorical question because I dont want any rebel teenagers saying " I hate my dad". So in response to that pointless little tidbit you decided to leave us... :rolleyes: |
U prooved my point by flaming me !!
But u have to admit... most wars are caused by or due to religions !!
Oh, and my reason for not believing in god is because i believe the big bang stuff... and i believe everything just IS... if their wad a god, would earth really be the hole that it is ? |
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| D_G |
Another thing, this poll is asking for ppls opinions/thoughts and beliefs... i put mine forward and look wut happens !
I appreicate that u probably believe in God and follow religion very closly... that doesnt matter to me at all... and im sorry i probably did sound a bit ignorant for not posting a reason for why i think wut i do... but ur response wut pretty dayum lame |
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| D_G |
| quote: | Originally posted by USSR Junkie
...never believed in ANY ! I'd rather believe in existence of Santa Claus than a god :rolleyes: |
Same |
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| drizzt81 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sarcoman
He also stated something which made complete sense to me. You dont have to choose either Creation, or Evolution. You can believe them both, depending on how strict, or liberally you want to interpret the bible.
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from what i understood, this is true. There is nothing i know of, which says that god is not the driving force behind evolution, or is there?
someone once said, and i hold that to be very true:
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"At some point, there is an end to science, maybe you can go and look inside of atoms, have the "stings" theory, but at some point, you just stop and say 'I do not know _WHY_ it is this way, it just is'. At that point, as a religious person you say: 'Becuase god made it that way'. If you do not believe in god, you say 'because.. umm.. just because'" |
I know this isn't much in terms of the fact discussion, but i think it brings in another aspect.
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it was said that it wasnt until a few days after God created the universe, that he created night and day. So before that happened, there was no way to determine what a day was. So the first few 'Days' of creation,
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[a little off topic]
isn't this very much like the heisenberg(?) uncertainty principle? Whenever you 'observe' something you change it.. therefore without an observer, the system behaved completely different?[/off topic] |
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| dj kinetica |
| quote: | Originally posted by D_G
U prooved my point by flaming me !!
But u have to admit... most wars are caused by or due to religions !!
Oh, and my reason for not believing in god is because i believe the big bang stuff... and i believe everything just IS... if their wad a god, would earth really be the hole that it is ? |
you havent studied religion or science very extensively have you..? think about what you believe..you believe that a big rock hit the earth and it made the world a suitable place for existance? the big bang theory is the lamest excuse to the creation of life ive ever heard next to evolution..
and also you dont know who God is and what God does for us...you think God makes this world all jolly and happy for everyone to live in which is not the case...sure he wants the best for us but we learn through experience. when it comes time for us to learn more and hard times pass our way and no matter what the outcome, if we fail or overcome it, were stronger and more confident than before... |
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| Orbax |
It wasnt really a flame. Youd be writhing on the floor if I really went after you :) Not believeing in God because you believe in the "big bang stuff" doesnt mean anything either. Explain what it is and how it works and how believing in that cancels out the belief of a God. If you cant answer that question on your own thats messed up. That means you are risking an eternity in hell for nothing more than a kind-of idea that you have a vague notion of.
And I meant that in the way of "follow the topic" the thread has gotten really in depth on a lot of issues and its beyond the point of stating opinion now. The main reason is this. Evolution hasnt been proved far from it actually, the big bang hasnt been proved thats why its a theory, the existence of God hasnt been disproved. So now we have to say why we believe/not believe these things beyond the gross explanations of "because of this random theory or principle". If you cant explain in detailed terms WHY you dont believe...thats just weak
And in response to the question of divine evolution: No. It says God created the species immutable and distinct. Immutable means unchangeable and not in an adaptation sense but the sense that a bird wont turn into an airplane one day after enough mutations.
Also, in response to the idea that God wishes us to suffer: No. God is good, to say that we get hurt sometimes to teach us things means that God is the ultimate cause of evil in the end. He is pure good though, so that means its coming from another source: Satan. When Satan and his angels took the power God gave them to protect man and abused it they introduced to man all the evils of the world, wars, violence, sickness, and death. We were in paradise, and then Satan messed it all up. There is a spiritual war on this earth. If you want an awesome book to read to help understand this read "Satan and the problem of evil" by Gregory A. Boyd. Again, this isnt the only source of the idea or viewpoint, but a good one. God does however like it when we DO have hard times that we turn to him in our need instead of turning to Satan and doing the easy, cheap, dishonorable things that he would have us do. |
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| Orbax |
oh and go read big bang posts on this thread bro hehe its pretty hard to swallow. The chances of the Big Bang making life is (get ready for this percentage) .00000000000000000...10^240 zeros...1 percent. Thats a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion something or other. The complexities of it are boggling. And then you get to earth which had an ammoniated sea, a sulfuric atmosphere, and a deadly sun. The chances of enzymes being created are ridiculous. The atheist scientists that created enzymes in a lab setting were at first ecstatic! THEY CREATED THE BEGINNINGOF LFIE!! The quote from them was something to this effect however "We now wish that we had never done the expirement because the sheer calculation of it points to a miracle". They said that you would have to have certain elements sitting on the edge of a volcano and then have a large body of water wash over the chemicals at the PRECISE right time and then so on and so on and so on...they said it was a huge blow because it gives creationist scientists so much ammo because there is pretty much no chance it would have started that way.
~~~Xxx{{{TrancEaddicT Haiku Alliance}}}xxX~~~ |
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| D_G |
| I believe wut i want to beleive so plz stop ranting |
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| Orbax |
| and I believe that your bring nothing to this discussion so stop posting. |
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| Sarcoman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
By the way...im hearing a lot of gross generalization...
This has no proof attached to it. So far it is just opinion. Now, if you are stating evolution as your religion, your faith in it is admirable because I can tell you that I will never have that level of faith in anything. But if you are putting into scientific terms we need a little more in the way of facts and stuff. So if you are putting it in faith thats cool I guess, but dont lay faith in scienctific "facts" and then not show any of them :thepirate |
There is also no proof to the bible, and you also stated that you believe everything that the bible has to say. The essense of science is that it is written, and discussed so that people are able to disproove it. That is the reason why experiments are printed in scientific journals, why there are constant debates about scientific 'Theory', and why scientists will always say 'We have a long way to go'. To say that because macroevolution hasnt been proven yet because of the 'non-existense of transitional fossils' is forgetting that Darwins and Wallace (Alfred Russel Wallace, who was postulating Natural Selection around the same time as Darwin) was only proposed in 1858, less than 150 years ago. That is hardly enough time to prove everyting... It will likely take millenia.
Furthermore, regarding the absense of transitional fossils. The fossil record, the older you go, get more and more scarce. Because of geophysical changes in the earth, many fossils are completely destroyed. Also, many organisms may not have had a bone struture, and therefore, not left any fossils at all.
Also, there is a theory called Puntuated Equilibrium, which was postulated by Steven Jay Gould and N Eldredge (SJ Gould recently died, unfortunatly), which states that in evolution, there are often long period of stasis, and very short period of rapid evolution. Therefore, many speciation events occur over a short period. Transitional species may not exist over a long period of time, and therefore, there are less potential fossils for transitional species, which explains their absence.
To say that there are no transitional species is also false. There have been many fossils in Human evolution that are quite convincing when it comes to transition from Australopithecus Afarensis, Australopithecus Africanus to Homo Habilus, Homo Erectus and finaly Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis (Sapiens and Neanderthals are considered by some to be subspecies of H. sapiens, I however beleive them to be completly separate species, as there is strong evidence to suggest a split in the lineage over 200K years ago).
| quote: | | This has no proof attached to it. So far it is just opinion. Now, if you are stating evolution as your religion, your faith in it is admirable because I can tell you that I will never have that level of faith in anything. But if you are putting into scientific terms we need a little more in the way of facts and stuff. So if you are putting it in faith thats cool I guess, but dont lay faith in scienctific "facts" and then not show any of them |
As for scientific facts, as I mentioned earlier, science is written to be disproven. If it cannot be disproven through scientific means, it adds credibility to the Theory, but absolute proof is rare in science, you have to have faith in science, which I do (as you mentioned).
Some facts I will give you:
Although I forget the species name, there is a Newt, or lizard Genus that lives in California, strecting between San Fran and as far south as SD. They occupy this area because they started out in one location, and constantly migrated further southward and northward. Although newts that are relatively close to eachother geographically can mate successfully, newts from the extreme north of the range cannot mate with newts in the extreme south, hence they have evolved into different species. This is because there was a geographical barrier between them. All the organisms were subject to natural selection, but they were in different environments, had diffenerent environmental stresses, and there was no mixing of the gene pool. Through random genetic mutations, the eventually became different enought that they could no longer mate, and hence became different species. This was on a relatively short time scale. Multiply this by 3.5 billion years, and many changes in environment, stresses, fitness, competition (and other variables), and you have the making of a stage that leads to many different species, genuses, classes, families, orders, etc...
Also, after the nuclear bomb was dropped in Nagasaki, it was found that mutution rates amongst several species increase by as much as 1%. Over time, these mutations to the genetic information will cause genotype and phenotypically differences in organisms. Once you have a change in phenotype, you have a change in how the organism can respond to the environment, and you have natural selection (some survive better than others based on their phenotype/genotype).
I will think of more examples, and 'facts' later. |
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| Orbax |
| quote: | | was only proposed in 1858, less than 150 years ago. That is hardly enough time to prove everyting |
more than enough time to disprove it though. The only people defending it these days are people who have something against religion. Again, read some books of opposing views instead of just the ones that agree with you and then try to find answers to they questions they give rise to. I haven't heard anything remotely inconsistent with the Bible. And when I said I believe everything it said look at my earlier posts I have several pages worth explaining why.
| quote: | | To say that there are no transitional species is also false |
Actually is isnt. Im not talking transitional intraspecies fossils. Im talking reptile to bird...and the archeopteryx is not one. I dont feel like typing but if you are truly interested research it.
All the lizard thing means is that a species genes have become incompatible. They are still lizards. They will always BE lizards. That is microevolution at its best with a flimsy link to macro evolution. Its the whole thing with the eyeball. Darwin said that things like star fish just have a photosensitive spot that barely senses movement, and that there are varying degrees of sophistication up until the camera like human eyeball. It looks like a good argument. Until you realize that to have a photosensitive spot you have to have some of the most complex chemical interchanges found in the body. Just to have a photosensitive spot you have to have light penetrating and breaking up rhodopsin and all these chemicals and having sodium gates open up and all this stuff. Its complicated. Evolution would have a VERY difficult time producing that. If not impossible. Because without all the parts at once it is a pointless mutation and would be gone. Darwin himself said that if ONE SINGLE thing can be found that could not be made by a progression of small mutations it would make his theory break down completely.
Theories come and go. The ancient greeks thought that there were only four elements wind, water, fire, and earth. It seemed right at the time because they didnt have the ability to probe deeper. Same thing. The molecular level looks like machines with a purpose and many are irreducibly complex. Darwins theory gets broken down badly at the molecular level.
and when i said "facts" I meant dont just say "The big bang happened" that is a "fact" to many people. But when asked how exactly the big bang progressed to life on earth and an antithesis to God, they dont know.
On the proof of the Bible... It isnt hard eveidence, it is merely a strong supporting of everything it says and things that are so odd that you cant help but think that there was something that science cant explain going on. Things like Tenochitlan "the city of Enoch" and Cain was banished to some unknown place and had a son named enoch. And all of Cains people were marked...only genetics get passed down...south americans are the only people in the world with no facial hair... that kind of stuff. A video called the search for the real MT. Sinai is incredible with a journey into Saudi Arabia with a forged signature of the king. They found "the caves of moses" (named by the locals who are muslim) and a mountain with a scorched top, not just a little circle burned, but the entire top 1/4 of a MOUNTAIN that is melted granite. The Bible speaks of God coming to earth there as a flame. Ball lightning wouldnt do it, and its a mountain of pure granite so no trees were there either. There are altars surrounding it which happen to be the exact number of the tribes of israel...the saudi government has signs everywhere that say they will behead you if you trespass, and they fenced off an entire mountain and patrol it.
the list goes on, with even after event falling perfectly within the scope of the Bible with many seemingly impossible things right there on this earth. |
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