|
spilled over from the gaming forum :D (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Darkarbiter
What is wrong with counters? |
HARD counters reduce depth, soft counters do not.
| quote: |
In warcraft 3 tft intelligence plays just as much a role... if not more because you can actually predict what the enemy is doing. Not... well they could be doing one of 5 things (probably much more) it's more one of 2 (and one of 4 of their unorthadox). |
yeah, but the difference is that WC3 had nothing to do with map control, other than creeping. you basically knew where your opponent was and the goal was to smash that base into the ground. since there are so many bases in FA, as well as a number of different counter-intelligence units, intel becomes far more complicated and important. not to mention that you're fighting on several fronts at the same time and that many units can shooter further than they can see, so intel plays another role here too. intel is far more important in FA than WC3 (and i loved TFT). |
|
|
| Darkarbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
HARD counters reduce depth, soft counters do not.
yeah, but the difference is that WC3 had nothing to do with map control, other than creeping. you basically knew where your opponent was and the goal was to smash that base into the ground. since there are so many bases in FA, as well as a number of different counter-intelligence units, intel becomes far more complicated and important. not to mention that you're fighting on several fronts at the same time and that many units can shooter further than they can see, so intel plays another role here too. intel is far more important in FA than WC3 (and i loved TFT). |
Expansions? That was the main point of map control. |
|
|
| Turbonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
HARD counters reduce depth, soft counters do not.
yeah, but the difference is that WC3 had nothing to do with map control, other than creeping. you basically knew where your opponent was and the goal was to smash that base into the ground. since there are so many bases in FA, as well as a number of different counter-intelligence units, intel becomes far more complicated and important. not to mention that you're fighting on several fronts at the same time and that many units can shooter further than they can see, so intel plays another role here too. intel is far more important in FA than WC3 (and i loved TFT). |
100% agree on first point. A huge weakness of WCIII TFT, since it's mostly hard counters. Or in the case of the Demon Hunter + Bears + Dryads, an everything counter.
On your second point: it can become map control, but that's usually late game and map dependent.
Honestly, the main issue with TFT is balance and overall flexibility of play. IMO, TFT's true source of imbalance comes not from particular units or Heroes, but the fact that certain races have a distinct advantage (read: Night Elf) in that they have a larger pool of strategic "options" to choose from. This is the opposite of say a Human player, who will go Archmage first 90% of the time, and have 1-2 viable strategies at high levels of play if he is to have a hope of winning. Night Elf on the other hand: Demon Hunter, Warden, PotM (mirror), Dark Ranger, Naga, etc. and a plethora of useful units, and the "solve all" Bears+Dryad combo if all else fails.
So as an analogy: the advantage a Random player has is that, at the start of a game, the enemy will not know what race he is and thus will not know what potential strategies he will be facing. This will delay the Random opponent's initial "confidence" in strategy. The disadvantage is that even the best Random player will, in theory, not be the best at any of the races he does get, while the set-race player will be the best at that race.
Problem is, when you play a race with more options (like Night Elf), you have a "randomized" effect in addition to the fact that you are playing your best race.
TFT in a nutshell is: learn the few strategies that work, and practice them nonstop until you perfect the most minute of details so that you can get that 5% advantage that will result in you winning the game. Result? It gets boring, and very frustrating when you lose because of the smallest detail, despite the near-perfection of the rest of your game.
CoR version: TFT had potential, but it's inferior to StarCraft as a true RTS. Hopefully the upcoming patch will fix that, but I doubt it. As for FA, I can't judge it, since I haven't played it before. |
|
|
| leph555 |
| how about a CoR version of this whole ing thread? |
|
|
| Darkarbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Turbonium
100% agree on first point. A huge weakness of WCIII TFT, since it's mostly hard counters. Or in the case of the Demon Hunter + Bears + Dryads, an everything counter.
On your second point: it can become map control, but that's usually late game and map dependent.
Honestly, the main issue with TFT is balance and overall flexibility of play. IMO, TFT's true source of imbalance comes not from particular units or Heroes, but the fact that certain races have a distinct advantage (read: Night Elf) in that they have a larger pool of strategic "options" to choose from. This is the opposite of say a Human player, who will go Archmage first 90% of the time, and have 1-2 viable strategies at high levels of play if he is to have a hope of winning. Night Elf on the other hand: Demon Hunter, Warden, PotM (mirror), Dark Ranger, Naga, etc. and a plethora of useful units, and the "solve all" Bears+Dryad combo if all else fails.
So as an analogy: the advantage a Random player has is that, at the start of a game, the enemy will not know what race he is and thus will not know what potential strategies he will be facing. This will delay the Random opponent's initial "confidence" in strategy. The disadvantage is that even the best Random player will, in theory, not be the best at any of the races he does get, while the set-race player will be the best at that race.
Problem is, when you play a race with more options (like Night Elf), you have a "randomized" effect in addition to the fact that you are playing your best race.
TFT in a nutshell is: learn the few strategies that work, and practice them nonstop until you perfect the most minute of details so that you can get that 5% advantage that will result in you winning the game. Result? It gets boring, and very frustrating when you lose because of the smallest detail, despite the near-perfection of the rest of your game.
CoR version: TFT had potential, but it's inferior to StarCraft as a true RTS. Hopefully the upcoming patch will fix that, but I doubt it. As for FA, I can't judge it, since I haven't played it before. |
That's not a cor version thats just a summary.
Sif starcraft didn't have hard counters? |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Darkarbiter
Expansions? That was the main point of map control. |
not really. expansions only occured at specific parts of the map that are easily accessible by everyone (the mines). there is no need to "hold ground" anywhere. and by holding a mine you are merely generating more income, you're controlling the mine, but not really the map.
whereas in FA you can build "mines" anywhere for income, the more resource generating structures you have, the more map you have to control/defend.
Im not bashing TFT at all, I just used examples from it because it is the RTS ive played the most. Its an awesome game for what it is, but in terms of tactics and strategy there simply isnt the amount of freedom.
| quote: |
On your second point: it can become map control, but that's usually late game and map dependent. |
See above, it’s a totally different concept. Map control in FA means that you can prevent the enemy from reaching say, your main base. Controlling many mines in WC3 might give you more gold, but its not the same thing as "holding" the useable terrain. Since some units/weapons have such a huge range on them, control of the map becomes paramount.
again i loved WC3 and only stopped playing it in feb when supcom was released. great game for its time and its still my fave game of its type. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
yummy yum yum!
 |
|
|
| Sushipunk |
Jesus. Nice graphics :wtf: That flying saucer is insane.
Perhaps I should get back into gaming :eyespop: |
|
|
| Silky Johnson |
| Jesus Christ. You're ing X TREME. |
|
|
| Halcyon+On+On |
:stongue:
TO THE MAX!!! |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sushipunk
Perhaps I should get back into gaming :eyespop: |
come and make sweet love to forged alliance with me :) |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by jëññýþîé
You're ing X TREME. |
like, X TREMEly helpful? thanks :) |
|
|
|
|
