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Russia denies entry visas to election monitors - Uh oh... (pg. 2)
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
The polls don't give choices between two candidates:
And for a little contrast: |
I read the book, "kremlin Rising," read it and understnad what is going on in Russia.... |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by ams.rld
I read the book, "kremlin Rising," read it and understnad what is going on in Russia.... |
I should hope that it takes more than one book to become an expert on something. |
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I should hope that it takes more than one book to become an expert on something. |
It does but reading a couple of internet articles is not doing much. But I won't argue because I'll be sinking down to your level. But I will say this once and that is that you don't understand Russian politics or mentality. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by ams.rld
I read the book, "kremlin Rising," read it and understnad what is going on in Russia.... |
I have that book. Wanna buy it? Its crap. I expected it to be so much better. What a waste of 25 bucks. Plus I bought the hardcover.
Its true that Putin cares about his image. But he is no dictator. The book is written by a journalist. A journalist who hails that Yeltsin was a great leader and an amazing democrat **cough cough** and Putin ... well, not quite. Overwhelming majority of Russian people will tell you to take your hero Yeltsin and shove it up your ass. With that thought alone, that book lost all credibility.
Plus, the book weighs a lot of fault on Putin on the truly serious and problematic situation in Russia. But its not his fault. He just happen to come to power in a country which was getting ravaged left to right. Even today, with all his powers he would not be able to tranform Russia into a fairy tale. He could not put away all the oligarchs because even though they're all dirty, he cant put them all away - they will put him away first. Just think about it.
Even today, there are still millions of people in Russia today that have lives as illustrated in silly books like Kremlin Rising, which make you believe that Putin is behind everything. Until you actually live in Russia, you dont know jack . When you live in Russia from the time before the whole 1991 mess started and to the point where it elevated, you realize that Putin and his global aspirations mean jack of a democratic threat to people. You realize that its actually the least of concer to people who cant even work, be protected by police from street thugs, criminals, mafia, lawlessness, lack of justice. The only people that Putin "threatens" are criminals and hungry businessmen who want to make quick cash and oligarch-style living, with least possible expenses, at the cost of the main population. They represent the minority. I've been in Moscow ... lavish dinners thousands of dollars for a plate, which just couple blocks down the street hundreds of people are begging for scraps of food. Local authorities were helpless in 1990s for most part. Somewhat true even today. Why is Yeltsin's blunders all Putin's fault? Any geniuses care to explain me how to fix a country of 145 million people in 8 years? IMPOSSIBLE!
Putin inherited a throne, a country which was decimated by crooks, criminals, murderers (mainly former communist party members who simply switched the hammer and sickle for a porno and a mafia), wars and independence movements. Pretty much everyone was a crook. I've seen it with my own eyes.
In order to get the power, Putin himself had to, you know, receive/give bribes, appease higher-ups and criminal politicians, close his eyes to shady dealings, and so on. How do you think he came to power? If was all perfect and clean, he would have never gotten anywhere. But he had a plan, and was very quiet about what he wanted. In fact, he worked in St. Petersburg for much of the first half of 1990s working as one of the top dogs in then the mayor's office - and the mayor became anti-Yeltsin - and for that he lost his spot to a pro-Yeltsin mayor. Putin then left St. Petersburg for Moscow, where he got a job working for Yeltsin's gang. He played along to Yeltsin when he was hired by Yeltsin people to work in Kremlin, and quickly moved up. He gained trust. Later he became a president. And then he, slowly but surely, got rid of those f*cking crooks, the Yeltsin gang, one by one, pretty much all of them. Berezovsky fled. Gusinski and Khodorkovski arrested. Those big three were hated by the Russian people. Everyone knew they were dirty, but there was never any proof other than in the form of dead bodies and corrupt police. After nearly a decade of lawlessness and political futility, Putin came around and said that its NOT gonna be like that anymore. Slowly but surely, every week corrupt officials get caught red handed and arrested for money laundering, bribery, murders, lack of accountability. People are getting justice. More work is done for the average people.
Putin finally brought accountability to the office of the President of Russia. Order and control was established over the entire country. Mafia can no longer do business in the open. All business started paying taxes. The conflicts ended. Living standards increased. Economy boomed. And so on. And who was the main artitect of all this? Putin, of course!
There are still many criminals in Russia, some hold high positions of power. Clearly, Putin knows that and he cant depose them. Some of these people are very powerful and helped Putin come to power. Only an insane man would turn these people into a spectacle without knowing he will get killed himself. So Putin is going after the countless other criminals and crooks in places of power across Russia. As time goes on and other leaders come and go, as long as there is Putin-like stability, things will get better, and more criminals will be off the streets. Russian people are tired of the word democracy, they know it means jack when there's no sense of stability or security whatsoever - on which democracy depends. By security I mean the ability for police to make sure properly that laws are followed and criminals are not allowed to get away with their crimes.
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Tell me which aspects of the book 'Kremlin Rising' really strike you. Explain me how its Putin's fault and what you think about it and we'll go from there. I'll try to explain to you the situation as simply as I can. If you want. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by ams.rld
It does but reading a couple of internet articles is not doing much. But I won't argue because I'll be sinking down to your level. But I will say this once and that is that you don't understand Russian politics or mentality. |
Lol, who are you?
Since I haven't ventured an argument about Russia at all on these boards, I am going to assume that you're talking out of your ass (again) when you judge what I do or don't know. I feel silly even addressing your base attacks, considering they aren't even relevant, but suffice it to say that I spent two years with an academic concentration in post-Soviet politics... so I do know one or two things about Russia. Before you say something about that not meaning anything, I will admit that my area of expertise now lays elsewhere since my interests have changed somewhat. But at least I have the ability to discuss issues in an academic setting, rather than write two sentences of unsubstantiated opinion before making an ad hominem attack and running out of the thread.
Furthermore, a book by two American journalists hardly passes as the definitive source on Russia. There are far better books - and for that matter academic journals - that you could read to get a better understanding of "Russian politics or mentality." I'm not going to get into an attack on your intellect. I wouldn't want to rise *up* to your level by slinging personal attacks, since you allege that I am intellectually *beneath* you. And in all honestly you've hardly written anything that demonstrates whatever intellect you might possess. Unless you can bring something to bear other than brief surface-level opinions with absolutely no support, it's hard for me to take you seriously when you follow me around from thread to thread and call me unintelligent whenever you may disagree with me.
It's amusing to observe your method of political discourse. You and Latin are two peas in a very narrow-minded pod. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
And then he, slowly but surely, got rid of those f*cking crooks, the Yeltsin gang, one by one, pretty much all of them. Berezovsky fled. Gusinski and Khodorkovski arrested. Those big three were hated by the Russian people. Everyone knew they were dirty, but there was never any proof other than in the form of dead bodies and corrupt police.
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Mag, have you read "The Oligarchs" by David Hoffman? My understanding was that Berezovsky and company acquired most of their wealth simply by taking advantage (legally) of misguided Yeltsin policies, which is why the only charges that have really stuck against them are tax evasion and the like. After all, they made the majority of their profits simply by buying up state assets that were being auctioned off at discount prices (Yukos, etc.). I know they are very Machiavellian and it's an easy argument to make that they are bad for Russia, but I never really saw the level of illegality that was levied against them by Putin's administration. But you would know better than I. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Mag, have you read "The Oligarchs" by David Hoffman? My understanding was that Berezovsky and company acquired most of their wealth simply by taking advantage (legally) of misguided Yeltsin policies, which is why the only charges that have really stuck against them are tax evasion and the like. After all, they made the majority of their profits simply by buying up state assets that were being auctioned off at discount prices (Yukos, etc.). I know they are very Machiavellian and it's an easy argument to make that they are bad for Russia, but I never really saw the level of illegality that was levied against them by Putin's administration. But you would know better than I. |
Thats not the full picture. There were many of these "oligarchs". Surely they might've acquired the entire country legally. Then they started fighting each other, like dogs. Some, like Berezovsky, decided to make friends with politicians to fight rivals. Berezovsky was himself once nearly killed when a massive bomb exploded near his passing motorcade I think it was in 1995. Ever heard of the famous Moscow street battles? And not just in Moscow. I am serious. It was very often in the first half of 1990s to witness, hear or read about another big gun battle with bunch of "biznessmeni" getting killed, and noone knows anything. Eventually, the ranks thinned, and few big players emerged. What happened in between, from the time they bought their first properties for pennies to the time when they owned much of the country - that stretch of time, my friend, was not done legally / constitutionally.
How do you think Berezovsky so easily acquired these critical state properties? Political connections played a huge role. Thats how Berezovsky became a billionaire. Just like many others, Berezovky funneled his fortune out of the country, and when it was time to leave, he was well prepared. And clean. There's hardly anything on him other than money laundering charges. Sadly. He supported Yeltsin and he got his dividents in return. To help Yeltsin with the dirty work. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Just like many others, Berezovky funneled his fortune out of the country, and when it was time to leave, he was well prepared. And clean. There's hardly anything on him other than money laundering charges. Sadly. He supported Yeltsin and he got his dividents in return. To help Yeltsin with the dirty work. |
I guess this is what I was getting at - I know there were literally dozens of organized crime bosses around, but the really big guys were never implicated in anything that could stick. So I'm just wondering if Putin overstepped his authority at all in pursuing them. Just because everyone intuitively knows that they did something wrong is still not grounds for their arrest. It's a dangerous precedent to set at least.
And what about Yuri Luzhkov - he was considered a success in Moscow, yes? But he was as close to some of the oligarchs as anyone. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I guess this is what I was getting at - I know there were literally dozens of organized crime bosses around, but the really big guys were never implicated in anything that could stick. So I'm just wondering if Putin overstepped his authority at all in pursuing them. Just because everyone intuitively knows that they did something wrong is still not grounds for their arrest. It's a dangerous precedent to set at least.
And what about Yuri Luzhkov - he was considered a success in Moscow, yes? But he was as close to some of the oligarchs as anyone. |
Yes, you understand the situation pretty well too. Luzhkov is not very clean, he's an exceptional oligarch ... he and his wife make big bucks maintaining a powerful real estate business in the capital - after all, real estate in Moscow is pretty dam expensive, yet there are always buyers. One of the most expensive cities in the world to live in - and it figures, since Luzhkov's wife is one of the richest women in the world, not the richest, but she definitely makes the top list.
But at the same time Luzhkov is a very powerful ally of Putin, a powerful Moscow man. Luzhkov is helping to implement the United Russia plans. His hands might not be clean, but he has the power to work along with Putin's agenda of improving the situation in the country. Putting Luzhkov behind bars will create a power vacuum and instability in Moscow. Luzhkov has been a mayor for like 15+ years, with huge experience, loyalty and trust, respect among the Muscovites. During his rule has moved Moscow up as one of the most expensive cities to live in the world - filled with completed and growing number of marvelous pieces of modern architecture, illuminating skyscrapers, parks and beautiful riverside.
Luzhkov has helped transform Moscow into the most prosperous city in Russia. Muscovites on average are the most well-off Russians, per capita and in wealth. Huge economic prosperity, growing business and scyscrapers, and so on. Sadly the rest of the country is forgotten. While Moscow is rich and successful when compared to the rest of the country, the regions get neglected. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Yes, you understand the situation pretty well too. Luzhkov is not very clean, he's an exceptional oligarch ... he and his wife make big bucks maintaining a powerful real estate business in the capital - after all, real estate in Moscow is pretty dam expensive, yet there are always buyers. One of the most expensive cities in the world to live in - and it figures, since Luzhkov's wife is one of the richest women in the world, not the richest, but she definitely makes the top list.
But at the same time Luzhkov is a very powerful ally of Putin, a powerful Moscow man. Luzhkov is helping to implement the United Russia plans. His hands might not be clean, but he has the power to work along with Putin's agenda of improving the situation in the country. Putting Luzhkov behind bars will create a power vacuum and instability in Moscow. Luzhkov has been a mayor for like 15+ years, with huge experience, loyalty and trust, respect among the Muscovites. During his rule has moved Moscow up as one of the most expensive cities to live in the world - filled with completed and growing number of marvelous pieces of modern architecture, illuminating skyscrapers, parks and beautiful riverside.
Luzhkov has helped transform Moscow into the most prosperous city in Russia. Muscovites on average are the most well-off Russians, per capita and in wealth. Huge economic prosperity, growing business and scyscrapers, and so on. Sadly the rest of the country is forgotten. While Moscow is rich and successful when compared to the rest of the country, the regions get neglected. |
Rumor was that he was in line to be President after Yeltsin before Putin's rise. Do you think Russians would get behind him if he pledges to rebuild the country like he did Moscow? After all, the big mayor strategy seems to be working for Giuliani. |
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Lol, who are you?
Since I haven't ventured an argument about Russia at all on these boards, I am going to assume that you're talking out of your ass (again) when you judge what I do or don't know. I feel silly even addressing your base attacks, considering they aren't even relevant, but suffice it to say that I spent two years with an academic concentration in post-Soviet politics... so I do know one or two things about Russia. Before you say something about that not meaning anything, I will admit that my area of expertise now lays elsewhere since my interests have changed somewhat. But at least I have the ability to discuss issues in an academic setting, rather than write two sentences of unsubstantiated opinion before making an ad hominem attack and running out of the thread.
Furthermore, a book by two American journalists hardly passes as the definitive source on Russia. There are far better books - and for that matter academic journals - that you could read to get a better understanding of "Russian politics or mentality." I'm not going to get into an attack on your intellect. I wouldn't want to rise *up* to your level by slinging personal attacks, since you allege that I am intellectually *beneath* you. And in all honestly you've hardly written anything that demonstrates whatever intellect you might possess. Unless you can bring something to bear other than brief surface-level opinions with absolutely no support, it's hard for me to take you seriously when you follow me around from thread to thread and call me unintelligent whenever you may disagree with me.
It's amusing to observe your method of political discourse. You and Latin are two peas in a very narrow-minded pod. |
oh but you have little boy. |
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Yes, you understand the situation pretty well too. Luzhkov is not very clean, he's an exceptional oligarch ... he and his wife make big bucks maintaining a powerful real estate business in the capital - after all, real estate in Moscow is pretty dam expensive, yet there are always buyers. One of the most expensive cities in the world to live in - and it figures, since Luzhkov's wife is one of the richest women in the world, not the richest, but she definitely makes the top list.
But at the same time Luzhkov is a very powerful ally of Putin, a powerful Moscow man. Luzhkov is helping to implement the United Russia plans. His hands might not be clean, but he has the power to work along with Putin's agenda of improving the situation in the country. Putting Luzhkov behind bars will create a power vacuum and instability in Moscow. Luzhkov has been a mayor for like 15+ years, with huge experience, loyalty and trust, respect among the Muscovites. During his rule has moved Moscow up as one of the most expensive cities to live in the world - filled with completed and growing number of marvelous pieces of modern architecture, illuminating skyscrapers, parks and beautiful riverside.
Luzhkov has helped transform Moscow into the most prosperous city in Russia. Muscovites on average are the most well-off Russians, per capita and in wealth. Huge economic prosperity, growing business and scyscrapers, and so on. Sadly the rest of the country is forgotten. While Moscow is rich and successful when compared to the rest of the country, the regions get neglected. |
The regions get neglected?! Have you seen some of the mess that should be fixed up in those regions?
Luzhkov is destroying the whole city. He should be going after all those commie blocks rather than the historic sites, but he is cleaning some of them up. Many Muscovites complain that he has turned Moscow into a way too expensive city for the average person. Which is true because my in law lives there with two room mates and all have college degrees. But they are earning a western salary. Actually i like their place. It is nice but most of the city isn't nice due to commie blocks. |
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