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Theory why female djs and producers are so horrible... (pg. 7)
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by distant
Why? Because it's such a ridiculous notion that men and women are... different? |
Not at all. If you have some data that points strongly to inherent differences in musical aptitude one way or the other, then go ahead and post it. But don't go off with some baseless faux-"scientific" speculation and expect not to be called on it. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by distant
Quite a few people have noticed that good producers tend to be male. As there's a small amount of women producing EDM, it's hard to do a direct comparison, but then the question becomes why aren't more women getting into production? I mostly agree with you on seeing possibilities rather than limitations (though as I said, I'm open to discussing the fundamental differences between the genders), I'm just talking about tendencies here. |
this is important - the difference between sex and gender...
in various production classes I took at college there were always far more guys and their projects tended to be far more involved and sophisticated. it's funny too, because a lot of the girls always did vocal or instrumental pieces with simple computer accompaniment or some computer effect that would modify their vocal/instrumental performance...
guys tended to go for all-out production and invention and there were several great projects like MIDI beachballs made from motion sensors and bluetooth devices, laser harps, etc, etc
Personally I feel it's a deep rooted cultural/gender division that comes from the expectations society has for girls growing up compared to guys, and the sorts of tools/toys/games they use during development.
For instance, when I was young my parents used to give me electrical kits and mechanical toy kits and I would build these things from a young age, disassembling them, learning about signal path, logic, etc I had my first computer at a very young age and used to dig into the editing tools of every program I could.. I learned photoshop and illustrator when i was six years old because my father was a graphic designer and I wanted to be just like him..
I think there was in general a cultural expectation for boys to tinker with things and to create, and for girls to consume. Do I think this is right? absolutely not, but I don't think you can deny it..
I don't think this has anything to do with biology. |
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| stevësto |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
... from girl from ATR...
They'd start by saying how everything's no problem at all, super easy – then start to explain, making it all doubly complicated and tedious. They'd go through the minutest technical non-details, giving you completely useless information like the year of construction, the company history and so on. Finally they'd show you a couple of "easy games" you could play – if you were really on top of it (like they themselves were!)...
They'd talk on and on, in the end just delivering an endless monologue. Mental masturbation, intellectual jerk offs. I'd turn and go. Sorry, but it's ridiculous! This I do not need! In the end it had nothing to do with helping me – it was a purely egoistic demonstration of power - and nothing more. They want to keep "their last bastion of power" as far away from women as possible. Now women think they can deal with the rules of machinery!?!?
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haha! this is fukn great! i know exactly what she's talking about. im a guy but i got the same exact treatment when i tried to get help from someone who makes music at home with hardware/ableton when i was at his house. i think most producers are like that. this is why there is never any real useful quick getting started guides in any producers forum anywhere. all you'll ever see is "look at the faq!" and the faq will always suck, and have a really long tutorial with unnecessary info. |
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| PETRAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by julien2
Partially true.
The only person who really made sense in this thread is eletrikal.
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Women, in society, are driven towards girlish attitude, in the "industry" wants them to be divas, pop idols, and such. From a very young age, they are conditionned to certain expectations of their gender, just like men are.
They are not worse at music than men
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Biologically, there are no cognitive differences
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
Culture > Nature
The conclusion of the original poster. Even though his opinion might reflect a reality of music industry today, the difference between men and women in music is not biological (cognitive), it is cultural.
All in all, you are just plain wrong |
Wow, this guy who is one of the biggest trolls of TA actually made a valid and intelligent post!
I have to 100% agree with you here, although i have to say that there are some biological differences between the male and female brains/minds (and hence cognitive differences). It is well established that men are better in visuo-spatial tasks (such as screen rotations and mental scanning tasks) whereas women have better abilities in processing verbal material and as a result, can read and recall written material (or the content of written material) better then men. There is an evolutionary reason for such a difference. In hunter-gatherer societies, men (or male hominids) should use their visuo-spatial skills in order to navigate and hunt in an efficient way. On the other side, women should develop social bonds (in order to have the support from the other members of the tribe in nurturing children etc.) and hence should use their language skills in order to succeed in inter-personal communication.
This seems to be the reason that women do actually seem to be worst in maths than men (at least to some degree-maybe a small degree but still a present one). Mathematical ability in mainly based on spatial processing (whilst the digits are represented in verbal areas as symbols, the transformations between these digits-e.g. a subtraction-is actually a spatial process based in the parietal lobe) and hence, to be worst in spatial tasks makes one to be worst in mathematical ability as well. It must be stated here that the number of women in engineering degrees linearly increase, leading to the notion that whilst such a difference (spatial-numerical-mathematical) exists, it doesn't seem to have a significant influence in university (or job) performance.
Despite these basic and small cognitive differences, there are no actual differences between the two sexes. So yes, any observed differences are due (and have always been-the argument for why there were no great female composers or painters is obviously stupid as hell) to societal factors. Hence narture > nature in this case. |
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| julien2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
this is important - the difference between sex and gender...
in various production classes I took at college there were always far more guys and their projects tended to be far more involved and sophisticated. it's funny too, because a lot of the girls always did vocal or instrumental pieces with simple computer accompaniment or some computer effect that would modify their vocal/instrumental performance...
guys tended to go for all-out production and invention and there were several great projects like MIDI beachballs made from motion sensors and bluetooth devices, laser harps, etc, etc
Personally I feel it's a deep rooted cultural/gender division that comes from the expectations society has for girls growing up compared to guys, and the sorts of tools/toys/games they use during development.
For instance, when I was young my parents used to give me electrical kits and mechanical toy kits and I would build these things from a young age, disassembling them, learning about signal path, logic, etc I had my first computer at a very young age and used to dig into the editing tools of every program I could.. I learned photoshop and illustrator when i was six years old because my father was a graphic designer and I wanted to be just like him..
I think there was in general a cultural expectation for boys to tinker with things and to create, and for girls to consume. Do I think this is right? absolutely not, but I don't think you can deny it..
I don't think this has anything to do with biology. |
You posted exactly the same thing as me, but in a far more intelligible way ! I agree completely with you. |
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| julien2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by PETRAN
Wow, this guy who is one of the biggest trolls of TA actually made a valid and intelligent post!
I have to 100% agree with you here, although i have to say that there are some biological differences between the male and female brains/minds (and hence cognitive differences). It is well established that men are better in visuo-spatial tasks (such as screen rotations and mental scanning tasks) whereas women have better abilities in processing verbal material and as a result, can read and recall written material (or the content of written material) better then men. There is an evolutionary reason for such a difference. In hunter-gatherer societies, men (or male hominids) should use their visuo-spatial skills in order to navigate and hunt in an efficient way. On the other side, women should develop social bonds (in order to have the support from the other members of the tribe in nurturing children etc.) and hence should use their language skills in order to succeed in inter-personal communication.
This seems to be the reason that women do actually seem to be worst in maths than men (at least to some degree-maybe a small degree but still a present one). Mathematical ability in mainly based on spatial processing (whilst the digits are represented in verbal areas as symbols, the transformations between these digits-e.g. a subtraction-is actually a spatial process based in the parietal lobe) and hence, to be worst in spatial tasks makes one to be worst in mathematical ability as well. It must be stated here that the number of women in engineering degrees linearly increase, leading to the notion that whilst such a difference (spatial-numerical-mathematical) exists, it doesn't seem to have a significant influence in university (or job) performance.
Despite these basic and small cognitive differences, there are no actual differences between the two sexes. So yes, any observed differences are due (and have always been-the argument for why there were no great female composers or painters is obviously stupid as hell) to societal factors. Hence narture > nature in this case. |
Throlling is only one of the many services I offer.
Oh, and yeah, your post is bulls eye. However, in the last sentence, I guess you meant culture > nature |
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| PETRAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by julien2
Throlling is only one of the many services I offer.
Oh, and yeah, your post is bulls eye. However, in the last sentence, I guess you meant culture > nature |
No its "nature vs. nurture", this is how the saying goes in psychology and behavioural biology. Nature meaning genes whereas nurture goes for the upbringing-the influence of the environment on the developing individual. "Culture" is partly correct, since whilst "culture" is an "element" of the environment (an element that influences indirectly the "nurtured" child through its parents), it is not the only one. |
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| HaeD |
| Im sure many Male producer were told they would never make it and yet they persisted, and this is were, I dont think those cultural difference really make a difference cause it's Not many people that can become great producer artist or specialist in something. It take dedication and a strong self. I dont think it's reasonable to say that it's easier for a man, It's not easy for both. |
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| AustralianGQ |
| quote: | Originally posted by HaeD
Im sure many Male producer were told they would never make it and yet they persisted, and this is were, I dont think those cultural difference really make a difference cause it's Not many people that can become great producer artist or specialist in something. It take dedication and a strong self. I dont think it's reasonable to say that it's easier for a man, It's not easy for both. |
yea i agree. i dont think its easier for a man, the original posters comments sound pretty sexest to me...their are alot of great female dj/producers out their. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
Firstly, there are inherent differences between men and women, due to evolution honing our bodies to do particular jobs. Men were designed to hunt for food, which is why men have less pain receptors and are naturally stronger. Women were designed to have and raise children: they have more body fat and so forth. These differences extend to how our minds work: men have good spacial abilities necessary for hunting, women have better social skills.
That said, I don't think these differences have any real part in why there are far more male producers and DJs in electronic music. I think the answer can be found simply by looking at the male/female ratio on TA or indeed in this thread. The simple answer seems to be that electronic dance music is simply more popular with men, for whatever reason. |
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| RJT |
Lovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.
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| UWM |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
Lovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.
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Yeah this is quite educational. |
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