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Bear with me...the art of mixing? (pg. 2)
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
The only condition I try to adhere to when DJing is mixing in key. I personally don't give a about all this 'flow' and 'set structure' nonsense. Sudden changes, including genre switches, I think make for a far more interesting set. I leave the 'take me on a journey' bollocks to the Markus Schulz loving gimps. 
That's just me though. |
i think you're absolutely wrong
what you end up with if you only worry about key is a generic hodge podge of favorites.
i've heard far too many sets like this especially from trance deejays who worry about key more because mixing off-key is not as forgiving to the ears
you've got to be conscious of the relation of one track to the other whether it's smooth or rough.
it's all about the tracks. , david mancuso doesn't even bother himself to mix, he just puts another record on when he feels like it. this is the basis of deejaying.
when it's done correctly you can't deny the power of a well programmed set, or the effect narrative structure has on a crowd
francois k, for example, is one of the best structural deejays i've ever heard. the way he brings the crowd up and down with his selection is unparalleled. if you ever find yourselves in nyc on a monday night you need to check out his deep space party.
it's all about tracks. for me phrasing is important, but when you mix house and techno which is more loop or groove based, the phrasing matching is simple and relatively arbitrary. The true art of phrasing is the placement of the mix and the creation of new phrases that results from the simultaneous and selective combination of two or more phrases. Placement of a mix is the real control that a DJ has besides selecting the track. I think it's the most important thing a DJ does - imagine that 10 deejays all have the same tracklist and technical skills - what makes one set better than the other is the placement of the mix. This has to do with creating tension, releasing tension, giving people a chance to breath, or taking their breath away, etc. You've got to be dramatic, you've got to be ballsy. I'm not talking about cookie cutter filter drops or cheesy flanging, but just raw drama created from the interaction of the first track and the next. There's so much power here, so much possibilty.
flow is critical unless you're playing for a bunch of ignorant, art-less child-people
As far as "genre switching" goes.....
the way I approach deejaying is as a sort of collection and presentation of various dramatic (or non-dramatic) moments and sounds. I listen for the sonic character of tracks more than a melody or something. I try to cut down below the apparent track and reduce it to the raw. I try to reduce it in my head to its most basic concept, i play my music loud and dance to it at home and feel the rhythm figures, listen for the patterns, the basic
impression, the raw power of the track.
because of this, genre is really irrelevant. what is relevant is the character of the sound at hand, the key, and of course, the tempo. I don't give a about genre. Music is music.
When I deejay I choose tracks based on impulses. I get intimately close to what I am playing and I start to imagine where it can go and how it can change. Often this will lead to an sudden, fleeting musical memory of another track which then I will rationalize. I might get reminded quickly of another track. Other times tracks have different meanings for me and I want to string them together like you might string words together to make a sentence. You have functional words, and you have expressive words (and compound words). You have action words and you have descriptive words. In the same way you have tracks which actively do something to you, and tracks which make you feel a certain way. You have tracks which express emotions, and tracks which help you to create an intelligible meaning between a few tracks.
This is of course, the ideal. You won't always make the most artistic choices in mixing for one reason or another.
Do most people even think about this stuff? No, of course not. When someone talks to you, do you see break apart the sentences into parts of speech and recall the various etymologies and phonologies of the words? Of course not. Deejaying at its best is a powerful form of communcation where the track is the basic unit. We as humans and life long listeners of music attribute various meanings to these units. Like writing, you can say something plainly, or you can say something eloquently. Some have a primal, undeniable meaning, for example, a simple 4/4 kick drum beat. It's instinctive - even animals might understand it. Others are more abstract.
I think it's either ignorant, pessimistic, or close-minded and base to think of deejaying as anything less than this.
but most of all, what deejaying comes down to is just pure storytelling and common-sense. there's no rule for it, just like any art-form. greatness comes from inspired ideas and good taste. there's a certain form of intelligence invovled, but mostly pure intuition and visceral knowledge of the body
in other words, you've just got to know how to with people and know what makes people move a certain way. you can put as many layers of meaning into it as you are willing to let yourself. not everyone will get those meanings, because many people are too narrow-minded or shallow, but I think it's crucial to always stay one notch above your crowd.
feel free to disagree with what i've written here, most of which has become a rambling nonsensical jumble of things that I think too much about daily - but ask yourself what makes a good deejay well, good...
edit
BTW OP -
speaking of words:
"bear with me" is the phrase you want.
"bare with me" is something a naturist might say |
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| DjPat |
Heh...It's funny, I feel as if everything you've said, i have thought about or known. Not sure how to explain it really.
When I go to a show or when i listen to a set, everything you said is what ive come to expect when listening. It's also what i expect when i "bedroom dj", from myself.
The difference is, I dont search for the next track, I go through my whole list until i find something i would like. This works well when your not on a live timetable (no pun intended).
Do you "choose tracks based on impulses" when deejaying live. I guess what im asking is, Whats your view on track selection from a live standpoint.
...and agree or disagree, it's nice to see someone actually say something more than 1/2 a paragraph. I said it was a broad question and i appreciate the croad answer. I enjoyed reading it. Oh, and would you mind sharing some francois k or david mancuso sets? |
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| Dojomaster26 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjPat
Heh...It's funny, I feel as if everything you've said, i have thought about or known. Not sure how to explain it really.
When I go to a show or when i listen to a set, everything you said is what ive come to expect when listening. It's also what i expect when i "bedroom dj", from myself.
The difference is, I dont search for the next track, I go through my whole list until i find something i would like. This works well when your not on a live timetable (no pun intended).
Do you "choose tracks based on impulses" when deejaying live. I guess what im asking is, Whats your view on track selection from a live standpoint.
[quote]
Oh, and would you mind sharing some francois k or david mancuso sets? |
+ a big 1
Are there any Mancuso sets?
DJPat: Last night I had an idea of what tracks I was going to play before I did my mini-gig. This was attributed to the fact that I had 15 minutes to mix and I wanted to go prepared. In any other situation, I would not plan past the first song that I play. When I'm playing live, I'm going by impulse decisions (what Nef said in a big nutshell). I'll mentally be playing candidates for the next track, until I eventually find the one that fits the mood of the event, the crowd, and what works well with the last track.
If there are tracks that I really want to play sometime during a set (like a new release) then I'll consider that as well, and maybe steer the set to where that track will fit in. |
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| nefardec |
so here are some links to david mancuso sets:
http://deephousepage.com/
search "david mancuso" here.
there is a seven part loft party recording
As far as Francois K goes, I can give you links, but it's really something you have to see live! (can't wait for the deep space party tonight) It doesn't exactly make sense outside that ideal little room.
http://deepspacenyc.com/modules.php...wdownload&cid=1
these are links to live sets.
check out some tracklists here:
http://deepspacenyc.com/modules.php...ategories&cid=1
you'll see how versatile he is as a DJ and how broad yet deep the selection is.
as far as track selection live - I always have some sort of idea going to a gig about what I think I need to play based on the crowd and venue, and also of what I want to play. For instance, if I have a load of new tracks I just want to play a lot of them out because it's exciting for me to see how people take it. Also, buying new music is a sort of self-expression for me, and it's important to me to break new records because it shows me who I am at a given moment. Our record selections at their best are sort of mirrors of ourselves (as long as you are staying true to what you love). A gig out is a chance for you to define yourself by your sound. I generally know where I would place a track when I buy it, or at least have some ideas. I have a listing of all my music on CD organized by key and tempo, so in a live setting I quickly scan tracks in the desired keys and one or two will jump out at me based on the track currently playing. I don't mix exclusively harmonically, but I often do just because I layer tracks a lot. Some times I'll have a little cluster of tracks already planned out because I like to play that group together, or I think it's really special - perhaps I've done it before. Some of the selection comes from pure impulse, like I said, based on something I hear or a signal I get from a crowd. Most of it is sheer willpower, expression, and imagination - ie I feel like making it darker now, or I feel happy so I'm going to play unicorn music.
So in the end, I feel the key to live track selection is just self-expression. The way I feel you interact with a crowd is not by pandering to a crowd and thinking what they want to hear per se, but by expressing yourself in a way that it becomes a sort of conversation with the crowd. It IS like telling a story. I don't mean a story as in a fairy tale or simple beginning, middle, end, but you are effectively talking to your crowd when you DJ, and I think a good DJ uses tracks like a good storyteller uses words. Basic storytelling methods are drama, surprise, suspense, repetition, etc. |
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| lücid |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
it's all about tracks. for me phrasing is important, but when you mix house and techno which is more loop or groove based, the phrasing matching is simple and relatively arbitrary. The true art of phrasing is the placement of the mix and the creation of new phrases that results from the simultaneous and selective combination of two or more phrases. Placement of a mix is the real control that a DJ has besides selecting the track. I think it's the most important thing a DJ does - imagine that 10 deejays all have the same tracklist and technical skills - what makes one set better than the other is the placement of the mix. This has to do with creating tension, releasing tension, giving people a chance to breath, or taking their breath away, etc. You've got to be dramatic, you've got to be ballsy. I'm not talking about cookie cutter filter drops or cheesy flanging, but just raw drama created from the interaction of the first track and the next. There's so much power here, so much possibilty.
flow is critical unless you're playing for a bunch of ignorant, art-less child-people
As far as "genre switching" goes.....
the way I approach deejaying is as a sort of collection and presentation of various dramatic (or non-dramatic) moments and sounds. I listen for the sonic character of tracks more than a melody or something. I try to cut down below the apparent track and reduce it to the raw. I try to reduce it in my head to its most basic concept, i play my music loud and dance to it at home and feel the rhythm figures, listen for the patterns, the basic
impression, the raw power of the track.
because of this, genre is really irrelevant. what is relevant is the character of the sound at hand, the key, and of course, the tempo. I don't give a about genre. Music is music.
When I deejay I choose tracks based on impulses. I get intimately close to what I am playing and I start to imagine where it can go and how it can change. Often this will lead to an sudden, fleeting musical memory of another track which then I will rationalize. I might get reminded quickly of another track. Other times tracks have different meanings for me and I want to string them together like you might string words together to make a sentence. You have functional words, and you have expressive words (and compound words). You have action words and you have descriptive words. In the same way you have tracks which actively do something to you, and tracks which make you feel a certain way. You have tracks which express emotions, and tracks which help you to create an intelligible meaning between a few tracks.
This is of course, the ideal. You won't always make the most artistic choices in mixing for one reason or another.
Do most people even think about this stuff? No, of course not. When someone talks to you, do you see break apart the sentences into parts of speech and recall the various etymologies and phonologies of the words? Of course not. Deejaying at its best is a powerful form of communcation where the track is the basic unit. We as humans and life long listeners of music attribute various meanings to these units. Like writing, you can say something plainly, or you can say something eloquently. Some have a primal, undeniable meaning, for example, a simple 4/4 kick drum beat. It's instinctive - even animals might understand it. Others are more abstract.
I think it's either ignorant, pessimistic, or close-minded and base to think of deejaying as anything less than this.
but most of all, what deejaying comes down to is just pure storytelling and common-sense. there's no rule for it, just like any art-form. greatness comes from inspired ideas and good taste. there's a certain form of intelligence invovled, but mostly pure intuition and visceral knowledge of the body
in other words, you've just got to know how to with people and know what makes people move a certain way. you can put as many layers of meaning into it as you are willing to let yourself. not everyone will get those meanings, because many people are too narrow-minded or shallow, but I think it's crucial to always stay one notch above your crowd.
feel free to disagree with what i've written here, most of which has become a rambling nonsensical jumble of things that I think too much about daily - but ask yourself what makes a good deejay well, good...
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| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
as far as track selection live - I always have some sort of idea going to a gig about what I think I need to play based on the crowd and venue, and also of what I want to play. For instance, if I have a load of new tracks I just want to play a lot of them out because it's exciting for me to see how people take it. Also, buying new music is a sort of self-expression for me, and it's important to me to break new records because it shows me who I am at a given moment. Our record selections at their best are sort of mirrors of ourselves (as long as you are staying true to what you love). A gig out is a chance for you to define yourself by your sound. I generally know where I would place a track when I buy it, or at least have some ideas. I have a listing of all my music on CD organized by key and tempo, so in a live setting I quickly scan tracks in the desired keys and one or two will jump out at me based on the track currently playing. I don't mix exclusively harmonically, but I often do just because I layer tracks a lot. Some times I'll have a little cluster of tracks already planned out because I like to play that group together, or I think it's really special - perhaps I've done it before. Some of the selection comes from pure impulse, like I said, based on something I hear or a signal I get from a crowd. Most of it is sheer willpower, expression, and imagination - ie I feel like making it darker now, or I feel happy so I'm going to play unicorn music.
So in the end, I feel the key to live track selection is just self-expression. The way I feel you interact with a crowd is not by pandering to a crowd and thinking what they want to hear per se, but by expressing yourself in a way that it becomes a sort of conversation with the crowd. It IS like telling a story. I don't mean a story as in a fairy tale or simple beginning, middle, end, but you are effectively talking to your crowd when you DJ, and I think a good DJ uses tracks like a good storyteller uses words. Basic storytelling methods are drama, surprise, suspense, repetition, etc.
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wonderfully said.
it's obvious, from listening to your mixes many times, that you approach DJing with absolute belief in all the statements you just made. that's pretty cool, and i think any aspiring DJ would do well to read these 2 posts and learn from them.
i love being able to see the connection between a DJ's thought process and the way they mix. |
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| UWM |
| Apparently nefardec is Spirit5's alt. |
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| denys envy |
| the art of mixing is best performed by bald white guys. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by UWM
Apparently nefardec is Spirit5's alt. |
appearances can be deceiving |
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| DjPat |
| quote: | Originally posted by lücid
wonderfully said.
it's obvious, from listening to your mixes many times, that you approach DJing with absolute belief in all the statements you just made. that's pretty cool, and i think any aspiring DJ would do well to read these 2 posts and learn from them.
i love being able to see the connection between a DJ's thought process and the way they mix. |
Definitely agree...In fact, I've never seen DJing put into words in such a manner. Definitely a lot of information to digest and think about, and use in my own way as you more or less said.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into these responses nef.
Now, it sounds as if knowing your tracks is a large part of the whole process. Is DJing your only occupation and if not where do you find the time to "get to know your tracks".
My memory is not what id like it to be for reasons that electronic music tends to fuel ;) and i find it difficult placing song titles to songs. any advice?
PS...How about some of your own sets? Definitely interested in those as well |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
I leave the 'take me on a journey' bollocks to the Markus Schulz loving gimps.
That's just me though. |
Me too.
I really don't think anyone other than the trancecrackers and pill heads gives two s about being taken on a "journey" - and I really don't ing care about taking anyone on one either. This romanticized notion about creating some deep magical experience is for the raver kids and idealists - all I seem to see anyone else caring about is having a good time out at a club (not traditionally a particularly deep experience).
I guess I just don't understand why people try so hard to articulate some deep, spiritual experience they're having when they DJ - and more specifically, how to get other people to that point. Have a good time and stop taking yourself so seriously - that's really the only advice I've ever gotten on how to mix well that seems to have worked for me. Anything more than that seems like "work" - and when spinning records becomes "work" I will sell my gear so ing quick it would debunk Einsteins theory of relativity.
When sorting out a compilation or promo set I'll obviously put a bit more thought into it - but I really get tired of hearing people try to cram more meaning into a live DJ set than there actually is.
Edit:
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
but most of all, what deejaying comes down to is just pure common-sense. there's no rule for it, just like any art-form. greatness comes from inspired ideas and good taste. there's a certain form of intelligence invovled, but mostly pure intuition and visceral knowledge of the body |
I found this part of your posts to be most intriguing, Adam - because I think I agree that deejaying is all about common sense and intelligent decision making (a big part of which for me is not overthinking), yet interestingly enough the DJ's I see championing the "journey" more than anyone else (i.e. your classic "big 3" etc.) are hands down making the least interesting, least intelligent decisions and displaying the poorest, least inspired, and shallowest of tastes. |
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| Clovis |
I agree with both Adam and Mikey. I tend to over-think DJing a lot, and I think thats when I suffer. When I just have fun and run with it I tend to play better. I'll spend less time thinking about what to play next and making analysis and just go with whatever feels good in the spur.
I think in DJing you can really break a lot of rules if you just do it "right". |
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| RJT |
That's just it though - when you start to analyze every little facet of what you're doing to get it "right" you aren't seeming to be breaking any rules, but rather trying really, really hard to make sure you adhere to all of them.
It's for that reason I don't think deejaying is about "anything" objectively describable at all, a quality I think the most talented jocks in the world display on a regular basis.
Edit: And I want to make clear that I hardly count myself among the worlds most talented deejays. :p |
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