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Israeli Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Double Standard. . . (pg. 7)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
In a courtcase, you need to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the defendant is guilty. That case remains to be made. |
the case is being made all around you...and the court thing is irrelevant. it was a metaphore in response to your metaphore.
| quote: | | I'm alarmed that Israel is not brought to any accountability at all simply because they are a western democracy. |
youre only alarmed b/c you obviously don't know about treaties and international law as well as Lebez. nothing more.
| quote: | | What, and give Israel a monopoly on nuclear weapons? Don't you see that the very fact that Israel has nukes basically guarentees that other MIddle Eastern countries just might want nukes of their own!? |
teh Saudis don't want them. the Jordanians don't want them. the Egyptians don't want them. if you look a little closer, Sunni dominated ME countries would only want them if IRAN had them! so your logic again is myopic, shallow and wrong.
| quote: | | Oh, and let's forget about the Palestinian occupation. . . |
what does that have to do with Iranian nukes? best not answer that.
| quote: | | It's Bush who is invoking World War III prophecies! |
and youre not?
see the key difference is Bush would like to avoid a WW3 situation as would most other sober thinkers and leaders including the EU and the Russians. you on the otherhand are more concerned with some sort of nuclear equality based on the here and now, ignoring everything that has ever been said or done in the past regarding nuclear weapons and ownership.
| quote: | | And this "internationally recognized state sponsor of terror" line is completely subjective. What list are you using for this "international recognized" bit? You also assume that Hezbollah is viewed by the entire world as terrorists, when in fact many nations, including several European nation consider them a resistance group. |
we're down to subjective interpretations now? you think i just make this up?
| quote: | | Like maintaining Israel's monopoly on nuclear weapons in the Middle East right? |
nope.
| quote: | | What I expect from Iran is for them to continue to respond to US-Israeli saber rattling with saber rattling of its own. |
honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone expects. it's a matter of whether or not it's tolerable for a country like Iran to have nuclear strike capability.
| quote: | | Do you honestly think that you can force the Iranians to bow down to your own agenda? |
the UN, IAEA, UK, France and Germany do.
| quote: | | Proliferation should be discouraged, but when you have a double standard of Israel's own nuclear program, how are you EVER going to expect the Iranians to just bow to pressure. You fail to realize the unfairness incentive of resistance. That unfairness breeds hostility and rebellion against the status quo. |
it's unfair. thats your argument basically. ok. it's an adolecent child argument but ok.
| quote: | | First of all, the president of Iran did not say, "Israel should be wiped off the map." This was a mistranslation. He said, "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad). Cole, Juan (May 03, 2006). " |
whatever he said it was soundly rejected by the international community and condemned. doesn't matter though really. the State of Iran, not just the President, repeats the constant meme almost on a daily basis. with or without provocation. hardly conducive to a peaceful and well intentioned potential nuclear power. but keep appologizing for them i don't give a . youre wrong on so many levels it's not funny.
| quote: | | Secondly, "smart" people is subjective also. |
more subjective interpretation argument. great. why don't you just invoke the Nazi's while youre at it? :rolleyes: |
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| hardcore trancer |
| Iran going after nukes has always been an assumption,no actual proof of them going after nuclear weapons,only accusations and labeling them as terrorist supporters.Acting like children really. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Iran going after nukes has always been an assumption,no actual proof of them going after nuclear weapons,only accusations and labeling them as terrorist supporters.Acting like children really. |
well there has been a large amount of proof, look at the article from reuters Q5 posted. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
I'm alarmed that Israel is not brought to any accountability at all simply because they are a western democracy..
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Type of government doesn't have anything to do with it. All non-signatories are viewed the same - Pakistan, N. Korea, and India are not subject to the norms of the NPT either. Of course, the US is trying their darnedest to get N. Korea to sign, but the fact is, under international law, N. Korea cannot be compelled to unless they agree. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
... If your enemy has nukes, wouldn't you be scard into thinking, "We need our own nukes?" I'm not justifying Iran's alleged program. But what I am saying is, as long as their is this perception of unfairness, essentially of hypocrisy, then no, you won't have Iran lying flat. |
"Fairness" is a term that is relative to all things being equal. The current Iranian State is HARDLY the equal of the Israeli State, on many levels.
So no, it is not "fair" for Iran to have nukes.
But I do agree that Israel having nukes could very well be the reason why Iran seeks them now as well (sorry, "allegedly" seeks them :p ).
But still, that being said, I'm all for keeping that country from ever acquiring nukes if it all possible. Who knows who they'll give them to (Terrorists) or how they'll put them to use one day. This is a nation that would go to war without preemption against Israel and her Allies, simply because they pray to a different "God". Scary. :nervous: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Type of government doesn't have anything to do with it. |
that's not entirely true. yes, those that have signed the NPT are held to a greater standard than other nations, but "rogue" states would be subject to fierce examination of their nuclear program moreso than a democratic, stable one whether they were signatories or not.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
All non-signatories are viewed the same |
the US (and by virtue others) certainly put a lot more effort into nuclear discussions with korea than they did india. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that's not entirely true. yes, those that have signed the NPT are held to a greater standard than other nations, but "rogue" states would be subject to fierce examination of their nuclear program moreso than a democratic, stable one whether they were signatories or not.
the US (and by virtue others) certainly put a lot more effort into nuclear discussions with korea than they did india. |
I would still argue that type of government has very little to do with it. Were N. Korea democratic and still engaging in threatening behavior toward S. Korea, it would garner the same amount of attention. And Pakistan has hardly been the emblem of democratic transparency, yet they have been spared tough confrontation in large part because they have demonstrated a more moderate stance toward using nuclear weapons. Of course, Kashmir remains the atomic powder keg with the most potential to go off.
Furthermore, I would argue that "rogue" and "democratic" are not by definition mutually exclusive. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I would still argue that type of government has very little to do with it. Were N. Korea democratic and still engaging in threatening behavior toward S. Korea, it would garner the same amount of attention. |
oh, of course. but i think its pretty safe to say that dictatorships (or similar) are far more likely to engage in said activities. democracies dont turn rogue nearly as often ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
And Pakistan has hardly been the emblem of democratic transparency, yet they have been spared tough confrontation in large part because they have demonstrated a more moderate stance toward using nuclear weapons. |
absolutely.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Of course, Kashmir remains the atomic powder keg with the most potential to go off. |
again, absolutely.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Furthermore, I would argue that "rogue" and "democratic" are not by definition mutually exclusive. |
hehe, well this is where my "centre" goes to the right :D we can argue about the difference between porn and art and where the line is too if you'd like :p look, you're right, but only because every single country in the world has done things they wouldnt (shouldnt) be proud of. but, between the US and iran, or israel & north korea -who would you want safeguarding nuclear technology?
with power in far more hands and levels of government, scrutiny, free press etc, these societies tend to have less ability to act however it wans, whenever it wants (domestically or globally), bush's last 8 years notwithstanding! ;)
you'll never convince me that iran having nukes is as safe for the world as israel possessing them. you saw the chaos after the breakup of the USSR, imagine another social revolution in iran with the oppressors being driven out and nuclear material going up for sale or theft! |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but, between the US and iran, or israel & north korea -who would you want safeguarding nuclear technology?
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In an ideal world? None of them. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
In an ideal world? None of them. |
right, well when we move to perfect fairy land ill be more than happy to agree with you. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
right, well when we move to perfect fairy land ill be more than happy to agree with you. |
Judging by your avi, I thought you already lived there. :p
I see your point, I just don't really think there is an assumption that democracy means good behavior. A correlation between the two, perhaps. But maybe that's just me being cynical about Democratic Peace Theory. |
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
The Zionist regime in Israel does not want peace. |
Neither does the Hamas regime in Gaza. |
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