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Ron Paul Supporters...SUPPORT OBAMA (pg. 3)
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by celestial thug
Who are talking about hard commodities. it is a total myth that gold represent any value, it does not represent any value other than one agreed upon by the marked place. Why, because gold is pretty much useless. |
The utility of gold has nothing to do with the determination of its value. It is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, hence the fluctuations in its price. There is nothing mysterious about this, and the same would be true if you substituted gold for any other asset, real or imagined.
If you wanted to fix the value of currency, you need to steadfastly control its supply, close it to international trade and peg its value to the supply of some other asset. This, interestingly, is how the communist Chinese fix (within certain parameters) the value of the yen against a basket of currencies. Is this the sort of system you're advocating?
| quote: | | So we have an imagined value for it, and this is the key point. money is an imagined entity, it can be anything, but the SYSTEM behind the money, the idea. Has to change, and gold has been suggested. Im not overly keen on the idea of Gold, for the same reasons you are, but as i said allready. youre whistling flour. A gold standard makes no sense if we pretty much keep the system as is, i agree. |
Okay, you lost me. What is it exactly that you are arguing for, then, if you reject the fundemental tennets of Ron Paul's gold-standard? You can't just argue, without elaboration, in favour of "change" - isn't that what you're accusing the "Obamabots" of doing?
| quote: | | again, money is an imagined entity, what really exchanged, is services and or goods, and money only represents a certain amount of either. You could say money is liquid representations of work hours and or efford. |
Yeah, which means that it has an actual value, regardless of how arbitrary the means of determining that value might be. $100 is worth 4 hours of my labour which is worth 30 bottles of coke. The relative price of these things may (indeed, will) fluctuate, but that is not to say that the employment of my labour, bottles of coke and the currency I use to intermediate the two won't always have an actual value with regards to each other!
| quote: | | whatever they please aslong as there is a mutually agreed upon exhcange of actual value taking place. Actual value isnt money obviously, unless money is made of something we concive to be worth something on its own, unlike paper and nickel. money has become nothing but a distraction. |
Fine. So not money, not gold, not nickel, not paper - what then? What are we going to trade with? How are we going to ensure that the value of this "thing" isn't prone to fluctuations in value based on the laws of supply and demand?
| quote: | | which they arent and havent been since mid 1700's for europe, somewhat later for the states. The mad inlfation is a direct result of this way of trading. it is not trading in goods and servies but promises which are...well worthless. |
So why not clamp down on the distribution of credit then, rather than overhauling the whole system? If credit was only issued on the grounds that it could be reliably repaid (which is exactly what the rational actor in a usuary system should be seeking in the first place!) what grounds would there be for a gold-standard?
| quote: | | I think it can be boiled down to that gold proponents (whether they are fully aware of it or not) wants a full reserve system, instead of a fractional one. And that part of it i agree with fully. Either the money is backed by full actual agreed upon value, or it is a worthless piece of paper, metal, feather, cow dung, whatever. |
So under your system, the government couldn't spend money that it doesn't already have stored in a vault somewhere? How would it fund a war, then? How would it be able to use budgetry simulus to bring the economy out of recession (or - as was the case in the 1930s under the gold-standard - depression)?
For what it's worth, I agree with the principle that a government should not run unsustainable deficits. I agree with the principle of a balanced surplus-deficit cycle (surplus in good times, deficit in bad times), as implemented by the Clinton administration and my own government over the past couple of decades. I disagree strongly, as you do, with the unsustainable deficits run up during the Reagan and Bush II presidencies. But implementing a system that prevents deficit spending - which I think is what you're advocating here - takes away the power of the government (or the federal reserve) to manage the supply of money in an economy in order to correct economic faults that the market cannot. As pkc has already posted, the depression - which was only allieviated by Keynesian deficits - is a good example of this.
| quote: | | Most people seem to have a hard time getting their head around this particular one. You borrow a penny, and the sum of money in the system becomes a penny less worth, even tho the physical representation of that penny is now passing around as a penny. |
:conf:
You're right, I am having a hard time getting my head around that. Please explain. |
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| colonelcrisp |
| quote: | Originally posted by celestial thug
Who are talking about hard commodities. it is a total myth that gold represent any value, it does not represent any value other than one agreed upon by the marked place. Why, because gold is pretty much useless.
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yeah um wrong again bucko......
one word..... electronics..... |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by celestial thug
pk, you remind me a little of this chick
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:eek: you going to get banned.... and how and why would you post something like that?? |
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| celestial thug |
| quote: | | So why not clamp down on the distribution of credit then, rather than overhauling the whole system? If credit was only issued on the grounds that it could be reliably repaid (which is exactly what the rational actor in a usuary system should be seeking in the first place!) what grounds would there be for a gold-standard? |
none!
| quote: | | So under your system, the government couldn't spend money that it doesn't already have stored in a vault somewhere? How would it fund a war, then? |
now in there lies one of the really deep issues of this whole debate. International conflicts require a lot of money, who has those moneys when the countries themself obviously hasnt? who have that kind of money to borrow out?
| quote: | | You're right, I am having a hard time getting my head around that. Please explain. |
fractional reserve banking, look it up. full reserve banking, look it up. Youll soon realise that the real debate is which one we should have, and im for full reserve no ifs ands or buts. Either you have the value, or you dont ahve the value, its that simple. You cant just make it up and promise that it will come about at some point as is the deal with freactional reserve banking.
what im advocating is what some has called "sound money".
In short, if youre lazy :) ...fractional reserve banking requires the bank to have 1% in reserve. So if the banks has 100 units, it can loan out 10000 units. Now you think , but hey...what if everybody wants to withdraw their money, then this scam would fall flat on its ass. and this is where central banks come in. |
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| celestial thug |
| quote: | Originally posted by colonelcrisp
yeah um wrong again bucko......
one word..... electronics..... |
and gold teeth, and bling bling yes...good luck eating it if hits the fan. |
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| celestial thug |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
:eek: you going to get banned.... and how and why would you post something like that?? |
i dont really care, the tone on this board is quite frankly disgusting, so whatever. |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | | takes away the power of the government (or the federal reserve) to manage the supply of money in an economy in order to correct economic faults that the market cannot. |
Many of our problems both now and in the past were CAUSED by government and fed intervention. The market can always correct economic ills with time if left alone, but unfortunately the government loves to hinder this process with yet more intervention...injecting and withdrawing paper...causing price distortions...effecting supply and demand for products, labor, etc. Rather than letting things have a natural (and HEALTHY) correction, the fed is intent on re-inflating whenever things look bad...propping up a sick economy and creating artificial prosperity. I will admit in times of catastrophe government intervention could be necessary to prevent us slipping into a depression, but we aren't using that power sparingly... We aren't using it for emergencies. We are relying on it 24/7...365.. Every hour of every day we rely on a system backed by nothing but debt and faith, and it is NOT HEALTHY in the long run.
The government should let the correction happen.. The fed needs to take a few steps back, focus on maintaining a sound currency, and allow the nature to take it's course. If they would just provide some certainty for business and individuals on what their dollars will be worth tomorrow, some certainty about the future value of the currency, people could plan effectively. They would make informed decisions...informed investments. These credit bubbles in stock and home prices could be avoided and our economy would be much more healthy over the long run. There must be SOME restriction on the endless and arbitrary printing of paper we have today. Whether or not the gold standard is the right tool for the job is up for debate...but something must be done to prevent the collapse of the dollar. |
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| colonelcrisp |
| quote: | Originally posted by celestial thug
and gold teeth, and bling bling yes...good luck eating it if hits the fan. |
gold to electronics is like diamonds to industry.
the vast majority of it goes into electrical component manufacturer. the only metal in existence that conducts better than gold is silver, but it readily oxidises. gold is only oxidized by chorine or chloric acids.
similarly the vast majority of diamond production is destined for industrial applications (saw blades, concrete blades, drill heads, etc etc) |
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| celestial thug |
| quote: | Originally posted by colonelcrisp
gold to electronics is like diamonds to industry. |
i know, but im not playing the "i proved a small insignifigant point of yours wrong, ergo IM (or my view) is right". At some point you just grow out of that.
However, all economy must be dealt with at the most basic level, a good economic system is what that works even if civlisation as we understand it today breaks down. finances that base itself on value always avaible to turn directly into goods and or services. Gold has some merrits, but effectively it is without value at base operation. You cant eat it, you cant seed it...But it has been used traditionally because its relatively scarce, fairly solid and easy to recognise. i think thats the ONLY reason we gave it any value back then, and that we belived it to be sun metal, and the sun is holy etc..not because its good for those fancy hifi speakers 6000 years out int he future. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
The market can always correct economic ills with time if left alone...
... but something must be done to prevent the collapse of the dollar. |
:conf: |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
:conf: |
The market doesn't control the currency bud...though some think it's a good idea. Right now it is illegal to create a competing currency. Those who have tried have had their assets seized and faced jailtime.
http://www.coinlink.com/News/top-st...ns-confiscated/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
Rather than going to an official gold standard, I like the idea of simply legalizing competition.
If the government were committed to providing a sound currency, they have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it, and let the people decide what to use. |
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| celestial thug |
| i could subsribe to that model a long way down the line aswell. |
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