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Questions about strings
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| AstroB |
So I have been learning to make trance for a couple months now and I think the main thing holding me back at this point is the strings cause I dont understand what they are exactly. I have trouble with what exactly they should play. I know theres no real right way but I am still having trouble with the basics here.
Should I just use chords that complement the key of the song? Or should only the same chords that form the melody be used? Like say I have a song in the key of C, can the chords for the first string be a simple C major, F major and G major? Until the breakdown when I add more variety and bring in a more melodic theme to the song?
I tried to add some strings to my song that were basically the melody of the song, only played through a pad and the volume turned down but that didnt sound right to me cause when the melody comes in it blends with the string background.
Any help here would be great. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by AstroB
Should I just use chords that complement the key of the song? Or should only the same chords that form the melody be used? Like say I have a song in the key of C, can the chords for the first string be a simple C major, F major and G major? |
Sure, if you want. But the I-IV-V progression is used reaaaaaally often, so you might not want to use it if you want your melodies and harmonies to stand out.
A lot of trance music (and dance music in general) uses chord inversions of some kind rather than "straight" chords. By "straight" chords I just mean, for example, C-E-G in the normal order for a C Major chord. I don't know whether you know what inversions are, but the basic idea is that instead of having C-E-G in order, you would have E, G, and then the C above, or G-C-E (in ascending order), etc.
By spacing out your chords in different ways like that, you can give them a different "feel." It can also make dissonance less subjectively unpleasant to a listener, since you can put "clashing" notes further apart.
;)
| quote: | | I tried to add some strings to my song that were basically the melody of the song, only played through a pad and the volume turned down but that didnt sound right to me cause when the melody comes in it blends with the string background. |
Yeah, it generally sounds pretty bland and lifeless if your chords move exactly with the melody.
Obviously the chords should complement the melody in some way, but it's kind of hard to give precise advice on what you should do. There are lots of things you can do that work, and probably even more that won't.
One thing I would suggest trying is to use the principle of "contrary motion." It's an old technique from classical music that dates at least from the Baroque period. Basically what you do is make the melody and the chords move in different directions, i.e. whenever the melody is going up, the chords (or countermelody) descend, and vice versa. The purpose of contrary motion is to keep the two sequences of notes "separate" in the mind of the listener.
It's certainly not an iron rule you have to follow all the time or anything. Just a useful idea to keep in mind. |
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| derail |
| quote: | Originally posted by AstroB
Should I just use chords that complement the key of the song? Or should only the same chords that form the melody be used?
I tried to add some strings to my song that were basically the melody of the song, only played through a pad and the volume turned down but that didnt sound right to me cause when the melody comes in it blends with the string background. |
Pads/strings (I'll use the terms interchangeably) can be approached in many ways - some people have massive, lush, complex pad arrangements, some have a very simple pad to simply warm things up a bit, some don't use a pad/string element at all - it really depends on the situation and what you want to do. If you want the pad to blend in, keep the notes simple and non-attention-grabbing. If you want the pads to add more harmonic depth to your song, then yes, you'll want to look for notes which add that depth - they should complement the key of the song, but won't necessarily be the same notes the melody happens to be playing.
Just on a side note - on the point of melody - do you mean an actual melody, that is, someone can sing it, or do you mean an arpeggio pattern/ progression? If it's a busy progression and the pad is playing the same thing, then the pad would probably get buried, but if it's a melody with gaps then the pad should still be heard in between the gaps, and it may sound quite okay to have the pad playing notes which are in the melody. |
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| AstroB |
Thanks for the replies both of you. Given me some things to think about that I wasnt aware of before.
Yes, its basically a mixed arp/chord progression for the melodies (which doubles for the string/pad, though I will change this now). It does sound kind of muddy with the pad playing the exact same notes as the melody at the same time, is what I was trying to say.
I just didnt understand what exactly the string was supposed to be playing but I get it now, and will mess around with some different things, thanks! |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
No problem. :)
I have to say, it was kind of refreshing to see a topic about composition for once. I tend to think that composition -- songcraft, learning how to line up a bunch of notes and create something musically compelling -- should be one of the main focuses of a forum that's about making music. The vast majority of people aren't born with that ability any more than they're born knowing how to operate a subtractive synth or buy nice monitor speakers, so it stands to reason that it should be discussed a good deal, right?
I dunno, maybe I'm just being weird...:conf:
Sometimes it seems like the production forum has become mostly a "tech help" and "recommendation" center, just a place where people get the tips on the best monitors / headphones / EQ settings / etc. So it was nice to see a topic going against that general grain. |
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| piku303 |
bump this. chord inversions make things nice an interesting. if a chord in the key of C goes C E G then its a first position chord. the first note is C, which is the root note of the key. so in terms of numbers it would be a 1 3 5 chord. the first note is the root, then the 3rd(major or minor depending on key) and finally the 5th. technically you may omit the 5th of a chord and just have the root and 3rd to create a true chord. a common chord inversion is taking the 3rd and putting it in the bass note. so instead of C E G or 1 3 5 it would be E C G or E G C. in terms of numbers 3 1 5 or 3 5 1. it doesn't matter where the notes are in the chord as long as they're there. experiment with different arrangements of the notes in the chords to create better voice leading from one chord to another. there are certain rules to certain arrangements and how each chord is "allowed" to move to the next but by the time you can learn those "rules" you could develop your ear and listen for what chords sound good moving in to each other. as with all things to only way to get good at this stuff is practice and practice. '
the easiest way to develop a string/pad progression underneath what you have already made is to listen to the bass line. hum in your head the root note that bass line is playing in. then with your pad play a note the length that the bass line. above that lower note play the 3rd. this is were you have to make a choice of whether or not the chord is major or minor. this will depend on the overall sound and feel of your melody. use your ears and you should be able to tell if the third should cause the chord to sound "happy"/major, or "sad" minor. after you have your 3rd in place the 5th is easy. its a 5th about the root note, NOT a fifth above the 3rd. repeat this for each key change of the bass. after your done press play. if its sounds weird you have either placed a wrong note or something thats minor needs to be major and vice versa. if it does sound ok then you can start experimenting with changing the octaves and positions of the same notes. remember it doesn't matter were the notes are in any order or octave as long as the first chord you made is C E G or G E C or C E C even (remember you can omit the 5th and have two roots or 3rds and its still the same chord). the letters used are just arbitrary. dont just compose in C! this stuff might seem a little confusing. if it is PM me and i can more easily explain it over chat or whatever. |
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| DigiNut |
There are many different uses of strings, depending on the track and the strings themselves. I'll give you a short list with some examples from my own tracks (I'm honestly not trying to hype these, they're ancient anyway, I'd prefer to use professional tracks but I'm not about to hunt them down and possibly violate several copyright laws).
- As the melody. In this case, all the normal guidelines about chord progressions apply. You can create floaty ASOT-like melodies with the soft, long-attack strings, or more upbeat melodies with a traditional violin or "string section" sound, or superstrings. You'll often hear them this way in a gated pattern. Examples: Basic Melody | Gated Melody
Just follow the normal rules for chord progressions and you'll be fine here.
- As basic harmony, for building up tension. Examples: String Backup
You want dissonant harmony if you're trying to create tension. It can have similar rhythm to the "meat" if you want, but different (complimentary) chords.
- As a refrain, cadence, or breakdown. This works best when you have just a subtle hint of the strings beforehand, and bring them in fully when it's time. Examples: Breakdown | Cadence
I guess there's no real rule here except to try and make them big and full. Long attacks can help, and you really have to try to come up with a reasonably unique melody or sets of chords for it not to sound crappy. I'd suggest at least one dissonant chord in the progression; the standard I-IV-V-I is going to suck for this common scenario.
- Pizzicato strings (plucks) can be used in place of stabs. Examples: Modulated Stab | Orchestral Style
I think the important idea here is keep it minimal. You're not writing a symphony so a quick little riff is fine. It goes without saying that you need a short attack. (FYI, I'm aware that the mixing and percussion on the second sample blows, which is why I never released that track)
Make sure it's in a different register from the other instruments, and consider not doing chords at all. Pick out a counterpoint melody.
- Or, something totally different. In my last track I took some strings, distorted and modulated the hell out of them and used them as a main hook, but I don't know how well that would work with trance.
Arpeggiation is not what I'd consider to be a good use of strings. Most of the time it'll just be a big ball of mud.
Does that help at all? I don't think it would really be that useful to start posting specific chord progressions because you can just as easily Google those. I'm hoping to just give a more general idea of the different uses. |
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| AstroB |
Yes, that helps alot you guys are great! Thanks for the examples those are sweet. All those examples sound fabulous to me. Actually its kinda disheartening hearing such good music when your new at it cause I feel like its such a long road to be able to make great stuff like that and it all seems uphill from here, heh.
I am definately putting what you guys told me to use though and hopefully soon I will get some music uploaded so you can give me more tips, if you dont mind.
Thanks again! I'm glad I joined the forum finally. I been reading posts here for a couple months but I am more of a listener then a talker so I dont post as much as I read. |
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| piku303 |
| quote: | Originally posted by AstroB
I am more of a listener then a talker so I dont post as much as I read. |
post more regarding composition! there are not enough discussions regarding this as said earlier. hurry up and makes some music so we can tell you how bad it is. no just kidding, but really make some music and we can help you figure it out if it sounds funny still. you have a good attitude towards learning. most of the people on here asking how to do stuff "want it now" and just want you to tell them how to make every freaking thing. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by AstroB
Yes, that helps alot you guys are great! Thanks for the examples those are sweet. All those examples sound fabulous to me. Actually its kinda disheartening hearing such good music when your new at it cause I feel like its such a long road to be able to make great stuff like that and it all seems uphill from here, heh. |
If I posted some of my early tracks you'd be laughing pretty hard. It's always uphill, for all of us, and even the best of the best are still constantly improving themselves.
If you really feel stuck, just stick to the most common chord progressions out there. You can still come up with something reasonably good by varying the rhythm and inversions.
One other tip I remember from my counterpoint lessons which might be helpful is, when you're writing a melody, try to move in small steps at a time (i.e. 1-2 or occasionally 3-4 semitones). If you leap, then don't leap again immediately afterwards, instead reverse the direction and go back to small steps.
Of course I break this rule all the time, but when you're just starting out it helps to stay within the prescribed frameworks. It's pretty easy to write a melody and countermelody using the above rule, even if it doesn't always end up sounding all that interesting or original. |
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| Kthought |
I agree with everything said, I can almost NEVER post my knowledge of composition, because the elite trancers on here are just as excited to bring the discussion to the table as I am. "Musical Relationship" is the exact nomer for the study you are seeking - Bass vs Melody vs Chord, etc.
... my early productions sound like a buffalo passing ass through accordians.
And as for the forum, you have stumbled upon the passionate, skilled, and dedicated trance musicians gathering place, and my uphill battle sometimes is solely aided by bits of text or encouragement from this forum.
"You have nothing but time"
-Ralph Kyau, from the passenger seat of my car. (and germany)
In time you'll assemble it all. just keep at it. |
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| AstroB |
| Thanks for the replies fellas, now wheres a good place to upload a song? |
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