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Master debaters
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
COR version: At a college debate tournament, two guys win the national championship not by actually debating the topic (which was something about the Middle East), but by arguing that the entire debate tournament itself was racist, sexist, and homophobic. Their "arguments" included "various forms of expression, including hip-hop, clips of songs and "spoken word," to accentuate their points, a far cry from the more straightforward, evidence-laden presentations of some of their competitors."
:conf:
| quote: | Towson U. debaters take national championship
First African-American duo to win title are grads of city high schools
By Nick Madigan
Sun reporter
March 26, 2008
Dayvon Love and Deven Cooper don't object to being called argumentative. They thrive on it.
The two members of Towson University's debate team happily accepted congratulations yesterday after winning a national championship -- the Cross Examination Debate Association's five-day tournament in Wichita, Kan. -- and making history by being the first African-Americans to do so.
Cooper, who turned 22 yesterday, and Love, 20, emerged victorious Monday night from a field of more than 180 two-person teams in the tournament, during which they overcame top-seeded debaters from Missouri State University, the University of Northern Iowa and elsewhere. In the final round, Love and Cooper beat a team from the University of Kansas by a decisive score of 7-4.
"We didn't really expect to win it," Cooper, a graduate of Lake Clifton High School in Baltimore, said yesterday while traveling to Fullerton, Calif., for another tournament this weekend. Asked how they had celebrated, he said, "We went to IHOP."
But what made the duo's achievement not only remarkable but groundbreaking was that they had turned debate traditions upside down deciding not to argue their chosen topic -- whether the United States "should constructively engage with a Middle East country." Instead, in a direct challenge to the judges and the system under which they operate, the pair made their central premise the notion that, as Cooper said, "the problems of exclusion in the debate community need to be addressed first."
By that, Cooper said, he meant the "racism, sexism and homophobia" that pervade the kind of tournament at which they were speaking. "We have a responsibility to talk about these things," he said. "We talk about racism the most because it's the one we're most affected by. Even at awards banquets, they make jokes that the community laughs at, but the people who they affect don't laugh."
In addition, Cooper and Love used various forms of expression, including hip-hop, clips of songs and "spoken word," to accentuate their points, a far cry from the more straightforward, evidence-laden presentations of some of their competitors.
"They debate in a style that is definitely outside the conventions of most teams," said Darren Elliott, president of the Cross Examination Debate Association, which oversees policy debate competitions for two- and four-year colleges in the country. "It's a very nontraditional style. That was clearly their strength."
Elliott, who is director of the debate program at Kansas City Kansas Community College, said the Towson team showed courage in trying to "engage the community in changing how we talk about things, how we deal with these issues of race and sex and socioeconomic class." In doing so, Elliott said, Love and Cooper confronted their judges, the tournament's organizers and other debaters by "telling them that what they're doing is not as productive as some alternatives."
From Love's point of view, it did not initially appear to be a winning strategy at the tournament, whose previous winners have included Northwestern and Harvard universities.
"There were people talking about how we were going to lose," said Love, a graduate of Forest Park High School who, like Cooper, learned his debate skills under the tutelage of the Baltimore Urban Debate League. "If people had told us a couple of days ago that we were going to win, I would have said, 'You're lying.'"
The experience, he said, was "intense," especially waiting for judges to make up their minds in each of the rounds, a process that he said sometimes took as long as 45 minutes.
Pam Spiliadis, director of the Baltimore Urban Debate League, which was founded in 1999 as part of an Open Society Institute effort to bring debate into urban classrooms, said it was the "first time in history that two young black men have won this tournament."
She said it was also a "momentous day" for Baltimore and for "young people from urban communities all across this nation who are too often the voices that are never heard."
Andres Alonso, chief executive of the Baltimore public school system, was equally pleased by the news from Kansas. "This extraordinary achievement is testimony to these amazing young men, to the Baltimore Urban Debate League, and to the community of the Baltimore City public schools," he said. "We are proud, excited and inspired to have Baltimore's young people leading the nation." |
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ed...0,2143399.story
Here is a video of the "debate" itself:
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
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| mezzir |
You know what's the true genius of this?
If you call them wrong, you must accept that according to this logic, you are a racist. What the . |
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| gehzumteufel |
| interesting. sounds cool that they turned everything about debating in the traditional sense on its head. |
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| mezzir |
| i think its cool, but i'm watching it now and it really does make me ing angry |
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| Paradox Lost |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
You know what's the true genius of this?
If you call them wrong, you must accept that according to this logic, you are a racist. What the . |
Why would that be the case?
Perhaps I'm not fully understanding your point, but calling them 'wrong' in this case doesn't necessarily amount to opposing their position that racism itself is wrong.
You can very well argue that they're wrong insofar as their arguments and premises are faulty, and more generally speaking, that they're wrong to basically redefine the debate according to their own terms. |
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| mezzir |
| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
Why would that be the case?
Perhaps I'm not fully understanding your point, but calling them 'wrong' in this case doesn't necessarily amount to opposing their position that racism itself is wrong.
You can very well argue that they're wrong insofar as their arguments and premises are faulty, and more generally speaking, that they're wrong to basically redefine the debate according to their own terms. |
i can't speak to the direct motives of speculative actions of the two individuals in the debate, but the town i was raised in is pretty much a hot spot for white guilt. i can't actually understand most of what either team is saying cause i don't have a transcript and they're talking really ing fast, but yeah. from what i can gather from their argument, the current system and rules of formal debate come from a white dichotomy and aesthetic.
Here's the tough thing. How do you debate that? It wasn't the issue, but if it's raised, a white man is absolutely ED trying to argue that with a black man his intellectual equal. Society has always been dominated by white males. I, as a white male, an made uneasy by this fact. Just as there seems to be some invisible bond holding all black people together, created by their historic oppression, so exists a bond making white people guilty for historically being the oppressor. There is absolutely no arguing that the system of debate comes from a white dichotomy and aesthetic, but thats simply because formal debate as we know it was created under this system.
If i were debating opposite them, the point I would raise would be how would this debate system created under a black dichotomy and aesthetic differ, and what would its rules be? Would it really be that different? Because, from all I've seen and know, it wouldn't be really that significantly different. And so i fail to see how this affects whatever argument they were supposed to be debating.
Actually, this tactic seems to be something ing Rove would do. If someone raises a point, instead of addressing it, they counter by insisting on debating a much more charged topic, but one that they will surely win. Tucker Carlson is good at this. If someone's watched more and they go more in depth about what they mean about their argument or if anyone has a transcript, let me know cause I'm interested.
COR version: racism is probably the most challenging issue to dance around and i ing hate the current discourse around it |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
COR version: racism is probably the most challenging issue to dance around and i ing hate the current discourse around it |
That's precisely why though, because you're forced to dance around it. You shouldn't need to do that but just tackle it head on. Unfortunately as soon as you attempt to, someone drops the totally unnecessary and overused racism card and you're back to square one. |
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| mezzir |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
That's precisely why though, because you're forced to dance around it. You shouldn't need to do that but just tackle it head on. Unfortunately as soon as you attempt to, someone drops the totally unnecessary and overused racism card and you're back to square one. |
Trust me, I've been through that more times than you can imagine. The town I live in is notorious for this. The funny thing is that a lot of the time it's the white folk who are so ridiculously PC and trying to be sensitive that cause all the fuss. When I was in high school we were all set to do West Side Story, and one (white) woman (with no puerto rican friends or acquaintances) complained that it was racist, and that was that. Cancelled. The hliarious thing? We also did a school sponsored and student-cast version of the vagina monologues that year. Also, our town recieved an official thank you letter from Iran a few years back.
edit: I shuold add that among friends I'm very very frank about my views on race, to the point where i've been labelled a racist before, and the problem is that being called a racist is just a ing curse if anyone hears you, that'll live on in people's memories these days. |
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| nchs09 |
| Sounded cool, but then i saw the video and didnt understand the first minute of whatever the guy said, so i closed it :o |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
Trust me, I've been through that more times than you can imagine. The town I live in is notorious for this. The funny thing is that a lot of the time it's the white folk who are so ridiculously PC and trying to be sensitive that cause all the fuss. When I was in high school we were all set to do West Side Story, and one (white) woman (with no puerto rican friends or acquaintances) complained that it was racist, and that was that. Cancelled. The hliarious thing? We also did a school sponsored and student-cast version of the vagina monologues that year. Also, our town recieved an official thank you letter from Iran a few years back.
edit: I shuold add that among friends I'm very very frank about my views on race, to the point where i've been labelled a racist before, and the problem is that being called a racist is just a ing curse if anyone hears you, that'll live on in people's memories these days. |
Man that's so true! It's usually a white person that thinks it's their moral duty to for some ing reason, once again segragate people and complain and behalf of the black people. I mean seriously, I see colour (I'm not blind) but I don't see colour, if you know what I mean. What race someone is doesn't bother me that much.
It's just such an annoying issue, especially these days. It's not the bloody 1960s anymore, people need to move and deal with certain aspects of it.
EDIT - I'm pretty straightforward too, which I see as a good thing. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
Trust me, I've been through that more times than you can imagine. The town I live in is notorious for this. The funny thing is that a lot of the time it's the white folk who are so ridiculously PC and trying to be sensitive that cause all the fuss. When I was in high school we were all set to do West Side Story, and one (white) woman (with no puerto rican friends or acquaintances) complained that it was racist, and that was that. Cancelled. The hliarious thing? We also did a school sponsored and student-cast version of the vagina monologues that year. Also, our town recieved an official thank you letter from Iran a few years back.
edit: I shuold add that among friends I'm very very frank about my views on race, to the point where i've been labelled a racist before, and the problem is that being called a racist is just a ing curse if anyone hears you, that'll live on in people's memories these days. |
+1. i have been closely watching what i say and whom i am around. only because i dont want to be labeled a racist. i too have very strong views that can be, if taken out of context, seen as racist. i try very hard to keep this view off of me but i have been called it before, and i do explain why i have that view etc. but it isnt always effective. |
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| SuspicionVandit |
video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ansg8BFbxc |
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