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Newspaper that angered Putin closes (pg. 2)
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
explain further please. |
It's like this.
Putin was handchosen as the successor for Russia by Yeltsin. The people that run America were like if we have a leader like Yeltsin again. That will not be good for our policy in strengthening our dominance around the world. We need to put someone in power that is of the old system and who has faith in the old system. They look and saw Putin a former KGB agent who had that potential. And as they predicted things worked out the way they wanted. Putin has shown that he is of the old system which gives the people running America less incentive on cornering Russia since he is doing it for them.
And as for the other comment. I was just poking fun at the both of your nationality. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
It's like this.
Putin was handchosen as the successor for Russia by Yeltsin. The people that run America were like if we have a leader like Yeltsin again. That will not be good for our policy in strengthening our dominance around the world. We need to put someone in power that is of the old system and who has faith in the old system. They look and saw Putin a former KGB agent who had that potential. And as they predicted things worked out the way they wanted. Putin has shown that he is of the old system which gives the people running America less incentive on cornering Russia since he is doing it for them. |
that's how the US works, i wouldn't expect anything less from my government.
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
And as for the other comment. I was just poking fun at the both of your nationality. |
i got that part. ;) |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
believe what you want, but the fact that putin will remain in a position of power is very telling. |
There's no law that says he cant be a prime minister. Its absolutely no indication of any authoritarian moves ... its just because its Russia and everyone gives it dirty looks. If the same happened in Western Europe I am sure they wouldn't mind. Putin's experience, knowledge and influence is very needed in a country like Russia. Throwing him completely off politics is like sending the country back into turmoil. Clear and simple.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Eco
No he didn't. Al Gore wanted nothing to do with Clinton. Many think that may be the reason he lost (aside from the Florida debacle). |
LMAO! Yeah, sure, right. 8 years as Vice President working under Clinton ... the only reason Gore wanted to "distance" himself from Clinton was Monica Lewinskiy thing. Otherwise they were very close, but for the politics sake they had to "split".
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
It's like this.
Putin was handchosen as the successor for Russia by Yeltsin. The people that run America were like if we have a leader like Yeltsin again. That will not be good for our policy in strengthening our dominance around the world. We need to put someone in power that is of the old system and who has faith in the old system. They look and saw Putin a former KGB agent who had that potential. And as they predicted things worked out the way they wanted. Putin has shown that he is of the old system which gives the people running America less incentive on cornering Russia since he is doing it for them.
And as for the other comment. I was just poking fun at the both of your nationality. |
There's a whole bunch of bull in that post you have. Putin was born and grown from the old system, but ever since his 1992 political debut in St. Petersburg he leaned towards the managed democracy (unlike the Yeltsin's unmanaged democracy). He is a very very smart and well-educated person who knows a LOT about politics, and not just Russian politics (and he speaks several languages) - you havent read his full transcripts, have you? Putin and Yeltsin were not friends. Putin tricked Yeltsin into believing he was his friend. When Putin came to power, all Yeltsin criminal cronies went down eventually - a very popular move, which wasnt popular with the West since the criminals who raped the country and gave Western companies/countries almost unlimited resources and access for almost free (fire sale deals) were curtailed and reversed. And as a matter of revenge, the whole anti-Russian campaign developed. Simple as that. What Yeltsin did in 1990s was totally undemocratic and criminal, yet it was fine with you guys. When Putin came to reverse the bull with rightful excuses to give the country back its resources and status, it became criminal. So he wasnt quite the Yeltsin-like figure and even the West knew it all along.
As for the reverse of democracy in Russia under Putin - all of that is bull. Its all speculation and little evidence. Besides, the criticism makes little sense especially when you see the growing Russian middle class, higher living standards, higher income, less poverty, better economy, more newspapers companies and foreign investment, etc. etc. and the Russians, the MAJORITY of them support the program. And its no smokescreen.
Now Medvedev has no KGB or communist party past so you'll have to be more creative on your excuses for Russian "signs" of authoritarian state. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
There's no law that says he cant be a prime minister. Its absolutely no indication of any authoritarian moves ... its just because its Russia and everyone gives it dirty looks. If the same happened in Western Europe I am sure they wouldn't mind. |
there's no law that says a US president can't be vice president, supreme court justice, senator, secretary of state, attorney general, etc... but it doesn't happen.
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Putin's experience, knowledge and influence is very needed in a country like Russia. Throwing him completely off politics is like sending the country back into turmoil. Clear and simple.
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i guess certain populations are just so undisciplined that they need an authority to tell them how to act. that's fine i guess. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
i guess certain populations are just so undisciplined that they need an authority to tell them how to act. that's fine i guess. |
Thats not the concern, there's nothing "undisciplined" about Russia, thats not the point. The concern is that in countries with developing democracies like Russia, every new leader completely revamps everything that was under the previous leader. Yeltsin took care of all Gorbachev cronies, and Putin took care of all Yeltsin ones. That weakens a country, because it creates political and power struggle. People got tired of it.
Besides, switching from Putin to Kasparov (as some of you wish), is like switching from Clinton to Alex Jones. Because Kasparov is crazy, he's got more conspiracy accusations than Alex Jones. Thats why he's not popular with Russian people - he tries to blame all the world's problems on Russian "secret" political plans and political rise. Russian people are proud and support their country - and Kasparov tries to embarass us with dumb accusations and theories.
You haven't really looked at the other candidates - there were nearly a dozen in the past parliamentary elections. Thats quite a few parties. Out of those, there are about 4-5 main different groups. Communists, nationalists, far right wing (Rodina party), ultra-nationalists (neo-fascists, Kasparov among them), neo-liberals (LDPR party), pro-Western liberal democrats (like Yavlinskiy's Yabloko party, who gathered about 2% of vote), and Putin party - which is not affiliated to any other parties but can be best described as nationalist liberal, "managed democracy".
Putin's choice is like in the middle of all others. People dont want to lean too much on utra-nationalist parties like LDPR and Rodina, and at the same time they are sick and untrustworthy of the pro-Yeltsin's Yabloko party, which can be best described as far liberal. |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
There's a whole bunch of bull in that post you have. Putin was born and grown from the old system, but ever since his 1992 political debut in St. Petersburg he leaned towards the managed democracy (unlike the Yeltsin's unmanaged democracy). He is a very very smart and well-educated person who knows a LOT about politics, and not just Russian politics (and he speaks several languages) - you havent read his full transcripts, have you? Putin and Yeltsin were not friends. Putin tricked Yeltsin into believing he was his friend. When Putin came to power, all Yeltsin criminal cronies went down eventually - a very popular move, which wasnt popular with the West since the criminals who raped the country and gave Western companies/countries almost unlimited resources and access for almost free (fire sale deals) were curtailed and reversed. And as a matter of revenge, the whole anti-Russian campaign developed. Simple as that. What Yeltsin did in 1990s was totally undemocratic and criminal, yet it was fine with you guys. When Putin came to reverse the bull with rightful excuses to give the country back its resources and status, it became criminal. So he wasnt quite the Yeltsin-like figure and even the West knew it all along.
As for the reverse of democracy in Russia under Putin - all of that is bull. Its all speculation and little evidence. Besides, the criticism makes little sense especially when you see the growing Russian middle class, higher living standards, higher income, less poverty, better economy, more newspapers companies and foreign investment, etc. etc. and the Russians, the MAJORITY of them support the program. And its no smokescreen.
Now Medvedev has no KGB or communist party past so you'll have to be more creative on your excuses for Russian "signs" of authoritarian state. |
You didn't understand and no it were RUSSIANS raping Russian resources no westerners were involved. I guess you don't understand capitalism since you are coming from Canada:rolleyes: . You also don't understand American policy, and their way of thinking. Which is why you don't get how Putin helped the American's out. And that is great that "now" Russia will have a Businessman as president. Good luck trying to get deals in your favor with American's surrounding you all over. And many countries not liking what has been the Russian experience with Putin in power and now his hand picked successor who also has putin as his Prime minister(sign* here is the sign of an authoritarian state plus the countless journalists he has killed and the money he has embezzeled in Switzerland). Stop defending Russia all the time you ignorater. And stop trying to pretend you understand how the American's are working and hwot the russians are. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
You didn't understand and no it were RUSSIANS raping Russian resources no westerners were involved. I guess you don't understand capitalism since you are coming from Canada:rolleyes: . |
DUH! When I stipulated that the Western companies owned the Russian resources I figured you'd understand who would be doing the dirty work and who would be getting resouces and making their big bucks. Well, same with Saudi Arabia ... Saudis are taking their resources and giving it to their American counterparts. Saudis are under direction and supervision of USA. Today Russia is independent of the American-British control.
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You also don't understand American policy, and their way of thinking. Which is why you don't get how Putin helped the American's out. |
For Christ's sake - for the last time - Putin helped Russia out - USA thinks Putin helped them, but they're mistaken. USA has only lost a key friend and ally in the world, lost Russia to China. You dont get it - if another Yeltsin-like figure came to power in 2000 it was going to mean the end of Russia as we know it today. Bye bye go Sakha, Tatarstan, and other regions and republics ...
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And that is great that "now" Russia will have a Businessman as president. Good luck trying to get deals in your favor with American's surrounding you all over. |
LOL!!!!! Russia doesnt need USA AT ALL. Its the other way around. Russia has plenty of clients in China, Central Asia, Europe ... last time I checked USA-Russia trade is pretty dismal anyways.
| quote: |
And many countries not liking what has been the Russian experience with Putin in power and now his hand picked successor who also has putin as his Prime minister(sign* here is the sign of an authoritarian state plus the countless journalists he has killed and the money he has embezzeled in Switzerland). Stop defending Russia all the time you ignorater. And stop trying to pretend you understand how the American's are working and hwot the russians are. |
I gotta run for work, I'll reply to this later if time permits. |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
DUH! When I stipulated that the Western companies owned the Russian resources I figured you'd understand who would be doing the dirty work and who would be getting resouces and making their big bucks. Well, same with Saudi Arabia ... Saudis are taking their resources and giving it to their American counterparts. Saudis are under direction and supervision of USA. Today Russia is independent of the American-British control.
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LMAO no russia today only needs bribes to pay off putin and his cronies.
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For Christ's sake - for the last time - Putin helped Russia out - USA thinks Putin helped them, but they're mistaken. USA has only lost a key friend and ally in the world, lost Russia to China. You dont get it - if another Yeltsin-like figure came to power in 2000 it was going to mean the end of Russia as we know it today. Bye bye go Sakha, Tatarstan, and other regions and republics ...
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No you jackass Putin didn't help Russian's out. Free market did that and if it weren't for Putin having held back several markets Russia would have been richer. And again Putin is the US's main man for their policy.
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LOL!!!!! Russia doesnt need USA AT ALL. Its the other way around. Russia has plenty of clients in China, Central Asia, Europe ... last time I checked USA-Russia trade is pretty dismal anyways.
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LOL!!!!! Of course Russia needs the US. If not a little than more than a little. Russia needs to supply China with natural resources for what? For China's trade with the US. If the US says I don't want to trade with China anymore goodbye Russia's economy. Also those central asian countries is not where the money is located.
And again you fail to understand that many European countries don't like Russia. Why because Putin has done what the American's predicted.
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I gotta run for work, I'll reply to this later if time permits. |
Don't get back to replying. |
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| HardTranceProd |
It's true that Russia doesn't have democracy; but you have to understand that the general population is perfectly fine with that.
See, how should I explain this... Russia is many things, but one thing it's definitely NOT, is Anglo-Saxon. You can't make the whole world have Anglo-Saxon values. You can't extrapolate your Anglo-Saxon ideals and choices to the rest of the world. (An attempt has been made in Iraq, and it failed miserably.)
And that's ok. The Anglosphere does not have the best claim to morality or prosperity or lifestyle choices or politics, despite what you may think. For every example that you can give that shows how the Anglo culture has made people's lives better and happier, I can give you a counterexample of how it's made people's lives much worse.
P.S. Was it not Rudyard Kipling who said, "East is East, West is West"? There's a lot of truth in that statement. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
LMAO no russia today only needs bribes to pay off putin and his cronies. |
They bribe themselves? Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Gazprom OWNS much of oil/gas in Russia (didnt you know?) ... they are actually fighting bribery and corruption because it resulted in massive money drain and tax evasion. They sell gas/oil to the Russian population for discount prices and sell to foreign countries for market prices. Gazprom funds many national projects that are in place. You outta research.
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No you jackass Putin didn't help Russian's out. Free market did that and if it weren't for Putin having held back several markets Russia would have been richer. |
Putin helped free markets come to life. Under Yeltsin free market was only approved by mafia and Berezovkiy's cronies. Russia is much richer today than 8 years ago, bud (in case you didnt know).
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LOL!!!!! Of course Russia needs the US. If not a little than more than a little. Russia needs to supply China with natural resources for what? For China's trade with the US. If the US says I don't want to trade with China anymore goodbye Russia's economy. |
Thats dumb logic. China isnt doing it for USA!!! Besides, USA is not the sole market for China, dumbass. USA is more dependent on China than vice versa. What the hell does China need from USA anyways? Scrap junk? China is a growing monster on economic and financial levels. Wealthy and middle-class Chinese are growing exponentially. For them to further industrialize/modernize their country they need a lot of resources, energy and thats what Russia is providing them. Just like European countries and USA needed many resources years ago as they grew, to develop themselves into their current form. If China stops importing Russian resources they collapse - Chinese economy will slow down and drag the whole country down. They dont have enough of their own resources to support themselves right now and especially their growing industry and economy. The need for oil and gas and other resources is not going to stop - just because your ignorant ass says NO to Russian resources - someone else will pay the big bucks to get them. Easy as that. The world is not going to stop and listen to your whining.
Besides, China's trade with Russia is dismal at best, despite the warm relations. So whoomty doomty do if China ever decides to ditch Russian oil for Iraqi oil or whatever the hell alternatives you can come up with.
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
i guess certain populations are just so undisciplined that they need an authority to tell them how to act. that's fine i guess. |
Its not a question of discipline. The country is still in chaos of the rumbles of the 1990s. Local officials are weak to do anything. Heck, my friend just got his driver's license by bribing the police officer in charge of issuing licenses. Putin's fault, you say?
A country of 145 million people, 17 million square kilometres, and many ethnic groups, languages and long history isn't gonna change overnight into your model. Only a strong leader can bring the change and encourage people. Putin has done that. He has given people hope, because even personally I dont trust any other Russian officials or politicians. Not that they are criminals, but they are powerless, because of bureaucracy and mafia, and so on.
So its not that the population is undisciplined that they need an authority to tell them how to act. The population needs a strong leader like Putin who has the authority and influence so that the officials will follow the law and citizens can finally choose and do what they wanted.
If some no-name idiot comes to power in Russia, noone's gonna listen to him, only his cronies. Yeltsin's officials were publicly kicked out of Sakha and even Tatarstan when he tried to collect taxes from them and send his officials there! It was funny yet scary to watch on TV. The officials will ignore the law in the regions, crime and corruption will be day-to-day thing, bribery will remain the only way to get anywhere in life - if Putin goes away. You can never understand the complexity of the situation in Russia. When USSR collapsed, the well-trained military people became the mafia/criminals when they had to find new jobs, and with their skills and connections they to the day have a big say in Russia. But Putin has demonstrated that he can put those bastards behind bars, which Yeltsin didnt want to do. So those f0ckers have taken a step back right now and Russian people finally can use the Russian Constitution, no longer bribe officials to win court cases, for example. |
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| guerra-monstru |
You are completly retarded and narrow minded. So I will do myself a favor by not responding since you also lack the ability to read comprehensively. Which should be a vital thing for someone seeking to debate about politics.
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
They bribe themselves? Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Gazprom OWNS much of oil/gas in Russia (didnt you know?) ... they are actually fighting bribery and corruption because it resulted in massive money drain and tax evasion. They sell gas/oil to the Russian population for discount prices and sell to foreign countries for market prices. Gazprom funds many national projects that are in place. You outta research.
Putin helped free markets come to life. Under Yeltsin free market was only approved by mafia and Berezovkiy's cronies. Russia is much richer today than 8 years ago, bud (in case you didnt know).
Thats dumb logic. China isnt doing it for USA!!! Besides, USA is not the sole market for China, dumbass. USA is more dependent on China than vice versa. What the hell does China need from USA anyways? Scrap junk? China is a growing monster on economic and financial levels. Wealthy and middle-class Chinese are growing exponentially. For them to further industrialize/modernize their country they need a lot of resources, energy and thats what Russia is providing them. Just like European countries and USA needed many resources years ago as they grew, to develop themselves into their current form. If China stops importing Russian resources they collapse - Chinese economy will slow down and drag the whole country down. They dont have enough of their own resources to support themselves right now and especially their growing industry and economy. The need for oil and gas and other resources is not going to stop - just because your ignorant ass says NO to Russian resources - someone else will pay the big bucks to get them. Easy as that. The world is not going to stop and listen to your whining.
Besides, China's trade with Russia is dismal at best, despite the warm relations. So whoomty doomty do if China ever decides to ditch Russian oil for Iraqi oil or whatever the hell alternatives you can come up with.
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