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difference between bass ducking and "real" side chaining (pg. 3)
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
I can't believe there's still so much misunderstanding about compression. derail has it right.
A compressor is just an automated gain control. It temporarily lowers the volume whenever the audio it's processing goes above a certain level. The precise way that it automates the volume will be affected by the compression settings (attack, release, ratio, etc.) you use.
That is all a compressor does. Really not that difficult of a concept to understand.
Mastering the use of it is a lot harder, of course. But understanding the basic idea is very easy. |
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| G-Con |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Mastering the use of it is a lot harder, of course. But understanding the basic idea is very easy. |
Completely agree. I've understood the theory of compression for a while having read god knows how many turorials and manuals.
As for knowing exactly when to use it and with what settings in a practical sense, I feel I don't have a clue :D |
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| Dj Nacht |
| quote: | Originally posted by G-Con
Completely agree. I've understood the theory of compression for a while having read god knows how many turorials and manuals.
As for knowing exactly when to use it and with what settings in a practical sense, I feel I don't have a clue :D |
Well from what ive read and tried out compressing a kick drum will smash the transient and bring out more punch from the kick drum. Obvious setting is a fast attack. Threshold well I guess you look at where the kick drum is peaking on the volume meters and minus that by a couple DB and set ur threshold there? Release for me is just to make sure the GR indicator has enough time to come back after each kick drum. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by theartfulducker
Exactly.
Exactly right. |
exactly wrong. as he explained later in the sentence, you would have to automate it to be similar to the compressor settings, as well as the kick you were using as a trigger.. Which is just getting ridiculous. If your gonna do that to sidechain why don't you just delete all your compressors and start using volume automation every time instead of compressing too? Lol.. |
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| theartfulducker |
I cant belive how many time you people are just stating the same stoopid thing. Its not wrong about automating a volume control. That all a sidecahined compressor is doing turning the volume up and down. Duh . Simple. It couldn't be ne more simple a concept.
I used to have to make automated volume envelopes tio get ducking effect before there were sidechaing VST compressors. Its a totally acceptable technique albeit time cinsuming.
And anyways the original question was about the difference between 'real sidechaing' and Bass ducking, which was answered in the 1st few replies.
Volume up and down~! simple. Not rocket science.
| quote: | | If your gonna do that to sidechain why don't you just delete all your compressors and start using volume automation every time instead of compressing too? Lol.. |
Did you actually think about statement that before you posted it??? |
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| theartfulducker |
| quote: | | exactly wrong. as he explained later in the sentence, you would have to automate it to be similar to the compressor settings, as well as the kick you were using as a trigger.. Which is just getting ridiculous. |
Have you heard of cut and paiste?.... |
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| derail |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Nacht
Well from what ive read and tried out compressing a kick drum will smash the transient and bring out more punch from the kick drum. Obvious setting is a fast attack. Threshold well I guess you look at where the kick drum is peaking on the volume meters and minus that by a couple DB and set ur threshold there? Release for me is just to make sure the GR indicator has enough time to come back after each kick drum. |
(just before I reply to this, I'll just say - yes, as theartfulducker pointed out, cut and pasting is right, for volume automation. You set up one bar (or even just one beat) and copy it for the whole song - easy. Not as easy as just using a compressor, but nevertheless quite straightforward. It just means that if you want to change the settings, you need to go and redo that one bar/ one beat, until it's what you want, and cut and paste it along the whole length of the song again.
This automation technique is potentially more useful for just automating an eq rather than the volume - so you can just lower the main frequency that's clashing with the kick and leave the high end of the bass intact, rather than have all the high end dropping in volume too. Though many times, that's exactly what we want to happen, so it's a matter of the right technique at the right time)
Anyway, Dj Nacht - speaking of compressing kick drums. I personally use samples that don't require the use of compression, but if I was going to compress it, it would be a case of how do I want to alter this sound? If it has a nice transient which I want to keep, then I'd set the attack a bit slower, so the transient comes through before the compressor lowers the gain. Or, the threshold could be set just below the level of the transient with a fairly low ratio and the compressor won't affect the transient much either - though it won't compress the kick much in that case.
In terms of release, a good rule of thumb is to have the compressor fully release before the next hit, but once again it really comes down to what you want to do to the sound. In the book "mixing with your mind", Mike Stavrou suggests making the release (and attack, from memory) "musical" - make it groove in time to the song, rather than using a compressor as a tool to purely drive up the average level of an instrument or song. Listen to how the compressor is working rhythmically within the song, find something which is breathing in time and the result will be a much more pleasing listening experience. If a song is mixed well you'll still be able to get your track as loud as you want it without setting every compressor to "maximum unmusical smash". In some cases it will still be very close to this, but it's something to think about. |
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| theartfulducker |
| You can also have control over the attack, release times etc when using automation for ducking. I used to achieve this buy automating the threshold on the ducking gate in sonar. Again really timeconsuming compared to using a compressor but it works. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
sidechaining simply means using a signal to trigger something. |
More accurately, if you picture all of your individual tracks as boxes on a flowchart, arranged in a funnel or triangle shape (i.e. many instruments -> fewer group tracks -> master), the actual audible signal comes out the "front" of each track, and by definition it's following a chain of channels. Literally, the "side chain" is an alternate signal path pulled out of the "side" of one of these channels. You can't hear it directly, but it can be used as the input for some other channel or effect that does get heard.
In almost any sequencer you can route pre- or post-fader "sends", which is commonly done for something like a reverb. Where this is "sent" through is the side chain. Obviously a reverb is different from a side-chained compressor; the former produces its own output based on an input signal, whereas the latter is performing non-linear modulation of a secondary output signal based on the input. But both of these effects can be side-chained.
Once you understand that, it's easy to understand why the second kind of side-chaining is so hard to do natively in most sequencers. They all support routing out to a side chain, but don't support routing in from a side chain. You can only route into the main input. That's why most off-the-shelf side-chained compressors have a "send" and "receive" mode; you actually use two different effect instances which establish communication outside the sequencer and create their own side chain that works both ways.
If you want a totally non-technical explanation, think of it this way: side-chaining can be anything that uses the sound from an instrument or channel without changing the sound. The effect is heard somewhere else. Bass-ducking refers specifically to side-chained compression, and even more specifically, to compression where the kick is used as a trigger to compress the bassline.
The bass doesn't have to be the output and the kick doesn't have to be the trigger. The kick is usually the most common trigger, although there are completely different uses for a side-chained compressor, like ducking vocal reverb to the vocal itself so that you only hear the reverb when the vocalist isn't singing loudly.
I can see the logic in saying that all compressors use an "internal" sidechain. It makes a certain amount of sense. But it's a bit misleading in the digital/software world because there's never any secondary signal - it's straight math and control structures. On an analog compressor, yes, there is going to be a real feedback loop, but even then, it's not the audio signal going through that loop, it's an entirely different control signal.
You could, of course, simulate an ordinary compressor with a side-chained compressor by routing the output straight into the sidechain. However, this is not how an ordinary compressor works.
Now I'm sure this guy will have a million points to "correct" me on because he's become a huge sidechain snob, but if you're in doubt, go read some literature on signal processing rather than the Wikipedia entry on compression. |
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| theartfulducker |
| Way to go overexplaining something! |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by theartfulducker
Way to go overexplaining something! |
off, he asked for an explanation and nobody really explained, they just gave examples and vague handwaving. Believe it or not, some people actually like to understand their craft. |
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| Dj Nacht |
| quote: | Originally posted by theartfulducker
Way to go overexplaining something! |
Overexplaining doesnt exist! The more knowledge on how something works the better! |
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