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Thought Process On Creating A Track. (pg. 3)
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
Having a 8-16+ Bars break here and there can be seen in about 90 % of any EDM Record. |
97.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and 63.8% of the remainder after careful deliberation.
| quote: | | The longer melody u have the longer break you are going to need, that is the reason techno and house doesnt have that long breakdown because they dont need to introduce a long melody line. |
Total bullcrap. I'm sorry bud, but I can't believe you would write that. Even if the logic made any sense... house has shorter melodies than trance since when? |
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| Lana |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjAyTeKnOtRoNiC
Wow, this got a lot of responses.
I think i agree that i need to finish my productions faster because it seems i get a few good things and fine tune them to the point i get bored with the track. I think i need to focus on the song as a whole and not each individual element. |
That's right!
I have the same thing facing me :D
I am thinking to make some fast song structre first... and after that going to worry about the drum levels, crashes and stuff... Now I have been just creating melodies, trying to get the perfect kick/clap/snare.... And no finishes tune... |
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| Jimb0b |
Im pretty much exactly the same, but I find the quicker the better. If I really try and do a track quickly, I have new ideas coming to me and it keeps it exciting for me, however if I work on a track then leave it for a day or two it just seems harder to pick up from where I left off.
If I can spend say a solid 5-6 hours on a track I will get a hell of a lot more done than if I was to spend 6 x 1 hour over several days. |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
97.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and 63.8% of the remainder after careful deliberation.
Total bullcrap. I'm sorry bud, but I can't believe you would write that. Even if the logic made any sense... house has shorter melodies than trance since when? |
Generally, yes.. trance has bigger melodies, maybe short was a bad choice of words.. but house has more focus on bass and percussions, while trance has a melodic focus, which needs huge and long leadlines which takes a great amount of space in the mix.. and you cant just introduce huge long melodies in an 8 bar break, it wont sound good.
While House music has a focus on bass and percussions, the melodic line will stay more on top of the bass and percussions, and not take that much amount of space in the mix, making it easier to introduce faster in a track.
And here are 2 tracks as en example, both track are sampled 8 bars from the breakdown.
This track has a bassline which repeats itself each 2nd bar, pads each 4th bars.
www.subtleinc.net/Sample001.mp3
This track has a melody and a bassline which repeats itself each 8 bars very often found in trance, especially the hands in the ear type of trance.
www.subtleinc.net/Sample002.mp3
This is an example of 2 tracks with different melodic structures and the breakdown needed to introduce the elements.
So basically if you want the breakdown to dissapear in todays trance, change the structure of the melody. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
...and you cant just introduce huge long melodies in an 8 bar break, it wont sound good. |
You don't need a break to introduce a melody.
It's easy enough to just introduce it while the beat is still going... |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
You don't need a break to introduce a melody.
It's easy enough to just introduce it while the beat is still going... |
Try making a trance track with no breakdown at all and see how that sounds.
Ive prolly heard thousands of trance tracks the last 10 years, and i cant recall single track with no break for atleast 8 bars. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
Try making a trance track with no breakdown at all and see how that sounds. |
I already did, and I think it sounds pretty decent:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3ow5uy |
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| Subtle |
| It sounds decent, but still repetetive, adding a break here and there for 8 or 16 bars would have made the track sounded more interesting. When ur on the dancefloor and there is never a break anywhere u get bored, if not exhausted. a break is a good way to give the people on the dancefloor time to catch their breath. |
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| theartfulducker |
| Its anice tune but the track sounds completely boring. There nothing really goin on in it. Just 8 minutes of the same loop and arp melodies basically. It totally generic track without even the interest of a decent breakdown. And in saying that it actually does have a cople of small breakdaowns! If you wann a come on preaching about how lame everyones trance is and how uncreative they are maybe you could've actually come up with somthing original yourself. |
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| Tt1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I'm not saying you should just toss in new things at random left and right. I'm saying that you can still make a danceable, club-playable track without using the same intro-littledrop-build-big-breakdown formula that every ing mainstream trance producer has been copying since at least 1999. It's not really that hard to think up ways to change the arrangement a little and still make it danceable.
- Make a ten-minute track with no breakdown. Or one where the breakdown doesn't happen until like eight minutes in. Or one with just a bunch of short drops instead of one big one. Or one that's ambient or breakbeat for the first five minutes then straight four-to-the-floor for the last five.
But it seems like practically nobody does this.
People just stick to the same "intro + littledrop + build + saw lead with low pass filter that opens up in the break" formula that's already been done thousands of times, and they're apparently unaware (or simply don't care) that hundreds of other producers are doing the exact same ing thing as they are, just with (BOY OH BOY, here comes the creativity, guys!) slightly different notes. And the worst thing is that when somebody deviates from that formula, they'll say "that's not trance."
COME ON. Does this not strike anybody else as ing absurd?! |
Absurd!? No....it's disgustingly ridiculous! :D
Hey man, it's not as if you weren't cool all ready with the knowledge that you provide and all...but that post just made you my hero! Down with the formula and on with the new age all ready!! :whip: |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by theartfulducker
Its anice tune but the track sounds completely boring. There nothing really goin on in it. Just 8 minutes of the same loop and arp melodies basically. It totally generic track without even the interest of a decent breakdown. And in saying that it actually does have a cople of small breakdaowns! If you wann a come on preaching about how lame everyones trance is and how uncreative they are maybe you could've actually come up with somthing original yourself. |
Yeah, I definitely have room for improvement. For an example of someone who does trance without breaks and is also a better producer than I am, you can listen to Earthshine by Solar Fields.
;)
There are people besides me out there who are trying to break out of that tired anthem trance formula. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
Generally, yes.. trance has bigger melodies, maybe short was a bad choice of words.. but house has more focus on bass and percussions, while trance has a melodic focus, which needs huge and long leadlines which takes a great amount of space in the mix.. and you cant just introduce huge long melodies in an 8 bar break, it wont sound good. |
Ultimately it sounds like you're basing your entire analysis of music on the way you're best able to produce it.
I'm seriously gobsmacked by how little you seem to know about these genres while claiming to produce both of them. The entire genre of house music was a spinoff on the funk and soul songs of the 1970s and 1980s. By contrast, the very idea of trance music connotes a repetitive, tribal kind of feel. The vast majority of trance made before 1998-1999 didn't really even have melodies in the traditional sense, just various motifs that got repeated, modulated, and transposed.
Try listening to a Snap or Paul Oakenfold or Sasha mix circa 1994-1996. These were brilliant sets that had the dancefloors going absolutely nuts (you know, with people actually dancing?) and the breakdowns are few and far between, even though the basic melodies were more or less the same as today's trance.
So you've posted two examples of tracks that "needed" long breakdowns and buildups. 'Course that doesn't prove that they needed them, just that they have them. And even if that did mean something - wonderful, I can list hundreds of tracks that do that, but it still doesn't prove anything about composition in general. How about some tracks that don't use long breakdowns:
- Daft Punk - Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger
- Armand Van Helden - You Can't Change Me
- Basement Jaxx - Red Alert
- Fatboy Slim - The Rockafeller Skank
- Sandy Rivera - The Light
- Adam F - Music In My Mind
- John B - American Girls
- X-Cabs - Neuro
- Evolver - Evolver
- Paul van Dyk - Forbidden Fruit (long ass intro, but no breakdown!)
- Paul van Dyk - Words (for Love)
And yes, most of these have some break, but taking the kick out for 15 seconds is a perfectly valid way of minimizing the repetitiveness of a track, and is not at all the same as a 1-minute-long build/break/drop sequence. It's simply a break, nothing more, and it certainly isn't introducing any new material.
It's also worth noting that these are the anthems I'm listing, and in general anthems are anthems because of their playability outside the clubs which makes them far more likely to follow the formula. Most DJs don't play anthem after anthem, they play what I'm sure a lot of you refer to as "filler" tracks. Maybe these aren't notable to you, maybe they're even objectively boring as hell, but they are what gets played in the clubs, most of the time.
That's what strikes me as so stupid about all of this. Every amateur trance producer is out there trying to create the next big anthem, which are precisely the tracks that have to be truly original in order to get any significant airtime. If you just make a track that's decent and harmonious and doesn't have 2 full minutes of undanceable material, and send it out to a bunch of DJs, there's a good chance it'll actually get played.
I'm not going to waste any further time on this discussion. I honestly think that this entire argument is based on deep-seated ignorance and self-delusion. People really ought to learn a little about the music they're trying to create, and it seems that so many have barely even scratched the surface. |
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