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What should I look for in new Monitors? (pg. 2)
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| 3F05Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by richg101
im a strong beliver that you need to really go super overboard to be doing things overkill:). the bass drivers im looking at are really some of the best you can get imo(cgn audiolabs 1808). and will really do proper flat from 150hz down to 30hz. 150hz and up is dealt with by my own design.. cast ceramic speakers...:) |
Well then how's this for super overboard? http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/...p?topic=50871.0
Some data on the front page... pictures later. I cleaned up the motor design and designed the basket.
Anyway...
CGN1808: x-max = 12.5mm (linear BL), f(-3) in a PORTED BOX tuned to 25Hz is 35Hz.
SDX-15: x-max = 30mm (linear BL), f(-3) FREE AIR = 22-25Hz... already flat to 230 or so Hz.
Yeah, I remember your ceramic speakers. I hope those are doing well for ya! (are they?) |
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| Frequency Frank |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3F05Q
Few things I've learned while working at _______(Certain studio monitor company, I'll talk more in August )...
Passive Radiators, great for listening, but I don't like it for production. I'll be using 2 21" passive radiators for a 21" sub that I did a fair bit of design work on. As a result it'll be flat, in room, to some rediculous number in the teens (and xMech = 60mm... that's one way mechanical excursion limit). Why? It'll extend the low end, at what cost? Boominess. Also, I'm not a fan of rear ports, especially with high Q. It loads the back wall/corners too easily...
...Case in point being the Genelec 8050. Damn that sucker goes low, but it's muddy and boomy and loads the front wall. SUPER high Q on the port that faces rearward. I did a waterfall of the 8050 and it's dirtier than my ex. (badum-ching!) They do this to control the excursion of the woofer at low frequencies. At box resonance the excursion of the cone is reduced as it is the driving force of the oscillator (mass on a spring: air in port is the mass, air in box is the spring). I've pulled apart an 8050 and run more tests on it than I would have liked.... or maybe I did like it since I got to pull apart one of the ugliest monitors EVAR!
Adam's don't use ribbon tweeters. They use Heil tweeters. If you think I'm splitting hairs.. I'm not. It's a stiff material. You have magnets front and rear that block most of the sound. 4:1 ratio in 'excursion' to air displacement? Eh... not buying that it's linear. It's wide, which hurts dispersion considerably. They have their port in the right place, though. Does it work? Sure. Does it create good marketing? Yeah, because it's referred to as a ribbon when it isn't a ribbon at all. Ribbon's are great, but they can be MUCH better. I have two patents being written up right now and one is for a ribbon tweeter. The other is for an ultra shallow sub. I'm outdoing the JL thin sub by a longshot. I digress... dome tweeters can be better than Heils anyday....
Which brings us to dome tweeter materials. Silk dome, great for listening, not great for producing. They're flabby and don't translate those highs well. Metallic domes are better for monitoring, but can be harsh to your ears if you don't use the right type of alloys. As a result tweeters are not something to skimp on when it comes to a monitor speaker. Dome materials/alloys can get costly, but worth it. Unfortunately, companies would rather save a buck here and there and not do it right. My knowledge breaks down here... breaks down worse than a silk dome tweeter. Katching!
Just as sub placement is critical.. .so is monitor placement. The room dominates the low end. A common room will lift the bottom of a speaker's response by as much as 15dB. Of course this all lends towards speaker placement and even moreso YOUR placement.
My biggest advice... wait until the end of the summer. |
As a car audio freak, the slim sub you're working on is intriguing :) Details via PM would be MUCH appreciated, haha.
Also, I love ribbon tweets for listening (I have Aurum Cantus home speakers), but don't know how I'd like them for producing. Sure they go extremely high into the freq range, but I find their dispersion in a nearfield setting sorta disappointing. I'm sure it could be done, but just seems tough. That, and they seem to be very fragile as well. How big are the ribbons you're working on? If they could bolt into my aurum cantus leisure SE II's, I'd be very intrigued. Or, if you need a beta tester, I'd love to build some cabinets and see how they go. |
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| Frequency Frank |
aaaaaaaaand I just read the end-game cost on what you are actually designing, and am embarrassed:( lol
Also, those Creative Sound subs look an aweful lot like some Adire Audio products (specifically this: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SDX10 looks just like a Brahma). I'm running an Adire Audio Shiva in my HT setup and it's very nice :) |
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| richg101 |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3F05Q
Well then how's this for super overboard? http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/...p?topic=50871.0
Some data on the front page... pictures later. I cleaned up the motor design and designed the basket.
Anyway...
CGN1808: x-max = 12.5mm (linear BL), f(-3) in a PORTED BOX tuned to 25Hz is 35Hz.
SDX-15: x-max = 30mm (linear BL), f(-3) FREE AIR = 22-25Hz... already flat to 230 or so Hz.
Yeah, I remember your ceramic speakers. I hope those are doing well for ya! (are they?) |
great 3d drawing work there mate:) that basket is a nice idea built in modules, and the open motor will help cooling(as will the 5" coil) i once toyed with the idea of coupling up 3 or 4 motors to drive a single cone...
Im always wary of high xmax's like 30mm. if i ever need to move that much air id sooner double up on drivers than utlise a driver with heavy parts to accomodate extreme movement. over the top excursion limits always seem to remind me of the horrid marketing used in advertising to boy racers. another driver i have been looking at is the ciare 18.00sw. this is looking very suitable for my needs and will be a damn sight cheaper than the cgn.
ceramic speakers are doing great now. money was tight so hindered progress, but the first pair sold two weeks ago. got some meetings with dealers next week and am doing it on a made to order service. next is to build the mastering system (with matching lf cabs):) |
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| 3F05Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by Frequency Frank
As a car audio freak, the slim sub you're working on is intriguing :) Details via PM would be MUCH appreciated, haha.
Also, I love ribbon tweets for listening (I have Aurum Cantus home speakers), but don't know how I'd like them for producing. Sure they go extremely high into the freq range, but I find their dispersion in a nearfield setting sorta disappointing. I'm sure it could be done, but just seems tough. That, and they seem to be very fragile as well. How big are the ribbons you're working on? If they could bolt into my aurum cantus leisure SE II's, I'd be very intrigued. Or, if you need a beta tester, I'd love to build some cabinets and see how they go. |
Just measured some AC ribbons. Pretty darn good stuff. Buy, yeah.. normally ribbons are VERY fragile. My material, however, you can hang a 40lb weight on it. Dispersion should be great on mine... but I'm waiting on the prototype parts from Australia!
The CSS subs look a lot like Adire stuff because it basically is! (SDX-7 = Adire Extremis)The shallow sub is my brain-child, and the super-ribbon is Dan Wiggins', aka Mr. Adire Audio. We've been working together for the past 6 months or so. DIYCable's subs are nearly identical to the old Adire stuff. |
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| 3F05Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by richg101
great 3d drawing work there mate:) that basket is a nice idea built in modules, and the open motor will help cooling(as will the 5" coil) i once toyed with the idea of coupling up 3 or 4 motors to drive a single cone...
Im always wary of high xmax's like 30mm. if i ever need to move that much air id sooner double up on drivers than utlise a driver with heavy parts to accomodate extreme movement. over the top excursion limits always seem to remind me of the horrid marketing used in advertising to boy racers. another driver i have been looking at is the ciare 18.00sw. this is looking very suitable for my needs and will be a damn sight cheaper than the cgn.
ceramic speakers are doing great now. money was tight so hindered progress, but the first pair sold two weeks ago. got some meetings with dealers next week and am doing it on a made to order service. next is to build the mastering system (with matching lf cabs):) |
Thanks man.. spent a ton of time on it! It's modular for lower tooling costs. Per unit costs will be higher, but this is such small volume that it's better to have a modular design for different diameter drivers. It's actually a single VC with three gaps. That lends itself to the ultra linear BL curve. There will be two PR's as well utilizing the same basket design.
Don't be wary of high x-max values. The challenge of getting high x-max was always maintaining BL throughout excursion. But this has an XBL^2 motor. If you check out the TS parameters I think you'll find that it will maintain its musicality. There isn't really any noticeable increase in moving mass for longer excursion. Spider and surround are a bit wider, is all. If anything, the lack of BL compression that you would see in normal woofers is reason enough.
Good to know your monitors are moving along. I plan on doing some made-to-order home listening speakers next year. They'll be very thin... so they'll have a good WAF (wife acceptance factor). :) |
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| richg101 |
| a 21" PR with huge excusion is something i have been looking for for the last 2 yrs. what sort of price per unit will your motorless 21" cost? |
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| richg101 |
check these puppies out....
got the flightcases back from the manufacturer today... |
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| 3F05Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by richg101
a 21" PR with huge excusion is something i have been looking for for the last 2 yrs. what sort of price per unit will your motorless 21" cost? |
Hmm... that's a tough one to answer. The plan is to sell a 'kit' of sorts for this beast. 1 driver, 2 PR's, and a Face Audio amp for 2500... but I think that price might have increased a bit. I'm sure that I can get you the PR by itself though. I'll let you know when I know.
Packaging looks great, BTW!
When you're ready for round two on your single-driver monitor, lemme know. There's talk of the world's greatest full range driver. :) Don't know the timeframe, but it's a ways out yet. |
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| echosystm |
| 3F05Q, what is your oppinion on most of the DIY monitor plans floating around on the net? I'm thinking about making myself a new set of monitors, just for a project. Any recommendations? |
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| richg101 |
| quote: | Originally posted by 3F05Q
Hmm... that's a tough one to answer. The plan is to sell a 'kit' of sorts for this beast. 1 driver, 2 PR's, and a Face Audio amp for 2500... but I think that price might have increased a bit. I'm sure that I can get you the PR by itself though. I'll let you know when I know.
Packaging looks great, BTW!
When you're ready for round two on your single-driver monitor, lemme know. There's talk of the world's greatest full range driver. :) Don't know the timeframe, but it's a ways out yet. |
cheers bossman. keep me informed on the pr issue. i really doubt anyone will improve of jordans full range unit to any significant degree...:clown: . neo magnets offer a definate advantage, but once jordan start to utilise this material then i doubt anyone will beat their design, that cone is magic!. would be great if they would work on a 10" variant with huge motor.
i had the unfortunate opportunity to check out some fostex fullrangers(i was curious) and i was almost sick! jordan are the only proper fullrangers imo.. they make the only driver i have auditioned that can perform up to the tweeter freq's.
your 21" pr could well be ideal as a radiator in a cab im designing. a single 18" ciare ported using your 21" beast..:eyes: |
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