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death sentence for blasphemy (pg. 2)
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| Krypton |
Listen, if we're going to hold the Western alliance as holding the ethical high ground, I object to that. If we're going to admit that both east and west have committed crimes, FINE.
And PKC, I'm AMERICAN. I don't hate America! I hate American foreign policy! BIG DIFFERENCE...:o |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
How about a so-called Christian government which tortures over 100 people to death.
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Hold up a second here... the US is certainly not a Christian government; it is a liberal democratic republic. Sure, much of it's values are shared with Christianity (a natural consequence of liberalism being an ideology founded by Christians) but it is in no way Christian. Moreover, the deaths of which you speak were not a direct result of any religious ideology, in fact, they are in stark contrast to the very religion you claim they were committed in the name of. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
good to see human rights alive and well in the islamic republic. yet those of us that are wary of madrassas popping up all over our neighbourhoods and islamic councils commenting in the public sphere of australia makes us "islamaphobic". |
If you don't want "madrasses popping up all over" your neighbourhoods (do you mean Madrasses or Mosques btw?) in Australian because of what happens in Pakistan, then yes, that probably would be considered "Islamophobic"!
Pakistan is an ass-backwards country as far as their religious laws go (as is any country whose laws are heavily steeped in "bad" religion) and I completely disagree with anyone that says we have no right to criticise. Punishing someone by death because they don't follow the main religion should is simply wrong. Doesn't matter what country you're in, or what culture you're in - it is plain and simple wrong and should be opposed and spoken out against |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Awesome!! I say it is time to invade them and show them what true democracy is all about you know like how we did it in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Unfair trial you say? how about we look at our own backyard first?hmm does guantanamo Bay ring any bells? or how about those secret prisons around the world made by CIA? Iam not saying what happend is Pakistan is a good thing but things like this happens everywhere,but the west always likes to pick on the evil Islam. |
Our Guantanamo Bay is very weak in comparison to similar setups in religious/fundamental countries.
For 's sake, prisoners here cry when some religious book is thrown at them and they're mocked. That's NOT real torture when compared to some of the crazy things done abroad. |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I completely disagree with anyone that says we have no right to criticise. Punishing someone by death because they don't follow the main religion should is simply wrong. Doesn't matter what country you're in, or what culture you're in - it is plain and simple wrong and should be opposed and spoken out against |
True. |
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| Zild |
| Torturing people to death seems like real torture to me. But I guess not since it is more like straight up murder. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
If you don't want "madrasses popping up all over" your neighbourhoods (do you mean Madrasses or Mosques btw?) in Australian because of what happens in Pakistan, then yes, that probably would be considered "Islamophobic"!
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:nervous: :nervous:
couldn't help myself.... ;) |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Hold up a second here... the US is certainly not a Christian government; it is a liberal democratic republic. Sure, much of it's values are shared with Christianity (a natural consequence of liberalism being an ideology founded by Christians) but it is in no way Christian. Moreover, the deaths of which you speak were not a direct result of any religious ideology, in fact, they are in stark contrast to the very religion you claim they were committed in the name of. |
The government is Christian. George Bush is a tried and true born again Christian. The largest bloc of the Republican Party are the religious conservatives. Is it a theocracy? No, and I never said it was. I also never said Christianity is the motivation to torture prisoners to death. Obviously, the Christian government does not even follow the dogmas of Jesus in this regard. I call them hypocrites. So we agree. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
(do you mean Madrasses or Mosques btw?) |
madrasses. im not a fan of religious schools and their public funding at the best of times, and australia has had some high-profile islamic "scholars" that have been caught preaching things i'd be happy to see them deported for.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
If you don't want "madrasses popping up all over" your neighbourhoods
in Australian |
oh look, they aren't "popping up all over" by any stretch of the imagination, it was just a turn of phrase. more politely i might have said that i oppose political islam in all its forms in my country.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
because of what happens in Pakistan, then yes, that probably would be considered "Islamophobic"! |
see, i like pat condell's position here, in that a phobia is an unwarranted fear of something, whereas criticising political islam is just common sense :p someone else said (forget who) that moderate organised religion is the cesspool from which fanaticism springs. i like that one too.
would you agree that some muslims have a hard time reconciling liberalism with strict islamic rules? has this posed problems for western countries? IF a strong correlation could be shown between countries that enforce islamic law and abuses of human rights and/or liberal freedoms, why am i considered some kind of bigot because i don't want the seeds of such influences being planted here? :conf:
of course i dont see australia becoming an islamic state or anything, but i complain about such things because the tendency of the "well to do" to pander to special religious interests pisses me off, as does the notion that islam gets a "free pass" because of its status as an organised religion.
i know i know, pat's made me an even angrier atheist but such is life :D |
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| George Smiley |
Well "madrassa" doesn't mean political Islam does it? Madrassa just means school, so your comments above about madrassas actually relate to Muslims in general (even tho I know now that is not what you mean)
Being opposed to political Islam is not any kind of phobia, it is perfectly justified
However, having a general phobia of Muslims because of the actions and beliefs of some Islamists is "Islamaphobic" |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
The government is Christian. George Bush is a tried and true born again Christian. The largest bloc of the Republican Party are the religious conservatives. Is it a theocracy? No, and I never said it was. I also never said Christianity is the motivation to torture prisoners to death. Obviously, the Christian government does not even follow the dogmas of Jesus in this regard. I call them hypocrites. So we agree. |
Just because the majority of persons in an organization are of one faith does not mean the organization is a faith group. The gas station down the road from me is not a Hindu organization, the corner store by my house is not a Budhist institution, the law firm I just wrote a check to is not a Jewish consortium, and my office is not a Christian business. You can only claim an organization to be a religious organization if they operate based on a theology. The US is not a Christian government because it does not base it's operation or legislation on Christian theocracy. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well "madrassa" doesn't mean political Islam does it? Madrassa just means school, so your comments above about madrassas actually relate to Muslims in general (even tho I know now that is not what you mean) |
here's the thing. to me, islam, like any other religion, is merely one theory among many. i dont believe all ideas or theories are equal. i certainly dont think all theories or ideas deserve their own schools to study who knows what. i don't think its necessarily a good thing to be indoctrinating anyone in religious schools, islamic or not. forgetting terrorism and blasphemers, i just don't agree with institutions that push the idea of a particular deity onto us.
the christian schools have started making noises that they should be allowed to discriminate with enrollments based upon denomination. that. i dont want any more artificial barriers being erected in my society than exist already.
christian schools are too entrenched in my culture for me to do anything about them (haha, not that bitching on TA does anything about it) but i'll oppose islamic schools if i want to ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
However, having a general phobia of Muslims because of the actions and beliefs of some Islamists is "Islamaphobic" |
i don't fully trust anyone that identifies strongly with a religious faith, unless i have known them for some time (exception being mr hazard :p ). that kind of (mental) leap of faith is disconcerting :p and most extremists were moderates at one time. haha, yes i know that's not fair.
i guess the point is i dont see what australia gets out of encouraging unsubstantiated superstitions when the rest of the world has been a fantastic example of what it can lead to. i would prefer the time, effort and money being put into studying say, stem cells, than what the real definition of 'jihad' is. |
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