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Recommended monitor headphones for producing music (not DJing)? (pg. 2)
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| Theran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnus
Theran those looks really nice. Do they have am accurate bass response? That is the most important thing to me when buying headphones. I want the bass response to be as real world as possible. |
I mixed my remix for Airwave on it.... Make your judgement ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Yeah for live stuff and stuff working close to mics where sound bleeding out it a problem. Closed back for isolation, open back for producing. Closed backs create standing waves and distortions in the cup, making it impossible to get accurate bass. It might be loud, but it won't be accurate. This has already been discussed about 20 times before dude...
@ the OP, just search:rolleyes: :whip: |
+1
Open headphones releases all the pressure off the ears. That's why there quite comfortable to work with. |
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| Nick Cenik |
| Every time this topic pops up many folks recommend the AKGs and, so, I'd suggest considering them :) |
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| Magnus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nick Cenik
Every time this topic pops up many folks recommend the AKGs and, so, I'd suggest considering them :) |
Which pair of AKGs are open that would be recommended? I had my eye on the 271s but those are now discontinued and the 271 MKII are the replacement and was wondering about those. Anyone use these? |
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| Elec |
| Do the open back phones also let in noise though? I have the Sony MDR-7506 and I like how they minimize the sound of my computer and other ambient noises so I can focus and hear better. I don't have a perfectly quiet environment. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Yeah for live stuff and stuff working close to mics where sound bleeding out it a problem. Closed back for isolation, open back for producing. Closed backs create standing waves and distortions in the cup, making it impossible to get accurate bass. It might be loud, but it won't be accurate. This has already been discussed about 20 times before dude...
@ the OP, just search:rolleyes: :whip: |
You've kind of stated the obvious (I had no idea that's why we use closed back in the studio every day at work :rolleyes: ) but because of the sheer amount of "which headphones should I buy?" threads which I try to avoid like the plague, I have never seen the argument posted here as to why people keep going on about open back.
IMO, I don't think the arguments work.
Firstly, headphones such as the Sony MDR 7509HD's (mine) are acknowledged to stand up against open back designs and have incorporated technology in the design to overcome the "Standing wave" issue (this is actually a bad description - it's actually just coloration caused by proximity effect).
Secondly, the negatives of the ridiculous amount of external noise we are exposed to (in anything less than a professionally designed and treated studio) greatly outweighs any advantage of proximity proximity effect cancellation that an open back design will give you. Seriously, fire up your kit, turn on your lights and really listen to all that noise going on in (and outside) your house. You brain starts to filter that stuff out automatically but guess what? that means you're also missing things in your mix becuase the brain filter is still happening in the background. This was reason enough for me to get closed back.
Thirdly, this was an argument that originated from the world of hi-fi audiophiles who were discussing the technical (and often theoretical) of headphones for Hi-Fi listening - very different to reference monitoring - you really should never expect any headphones (open, semi or closed) to have a completely accurate frequency response or balanced dynamic range. It's always a secondary monitor reference.
For these reasons, I bought headphones based on what would give me the greatest detail, be as close to flat as possible and were most comfortable - not (primarily) on what would give me the most accurate monitoring source (as above they never will be able to do as good a job as monitors either in terms of bass reproduction, frequency response or even panning). |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
You've kind of stated the obvious (I had no idea that's why we use closed back in the studio every day at work :rolleyes: ) but because of the sheer amount of "which headphones should I buy?" threads which I try to avoid like the plague, I have never seen the argument posted here as to why people keep going on about open back.
IMO, I don't think the arguments work.
Firstly, headphones such as the Sony MDR 7509HD's (mine) are acknowledged to stand up against open back designs and have incorporated technology in the design to overcome the "Standing wave" issue (this is actually a bad description - it's actually just coloration caused by proximity effect).
Secondly, the negatives of the ridiculous amount of external noise we are exposed to (in anything less than a professionally designed and treated studio) greatly outweighs any advantage of proximity proximity effect cancellation that an open back design will give you. Seriously, fire up your kit, turn on your lights and really listen to all that noise going on in (and outside) your house. You brain starts to filter that stuff out automatically but guess what? that means you're also missing things in your mix becuase the brain filter is still happening in the background. This was reason enough for me to get closed back.
Thirdly, this was an argument that originated from the world of hi-fi audiophiles who were discussing the technical (and often theoretical) of headphones for Hi-Fi listening - very different to reference monitoring - you really should never expect any headphones (open, semi or closed) to have a completely accurate frequency response or balanced dynamic range. It's always a secondary monitor reference.
For these reasons, I bought headphones based on what would give me the greatest detail, be as close to flat as possible and were most comfortable - not (primarily) on what would give me the most accurate monitoring source (as above they never will be able to do as good a job as monitors either in terms of bass reproduction, frequency response or even panning). |
Cool beans. My computer is pretty loud right(maybe I'll move it) so your information definitely helps. I might just add another Sony can to the family of 7506's and the 600's. |
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| echosystm |
In all the closed backheadphones I have tried (HD25s, HD280s and 7509HDs, 7506s), I can hear the resonance in the bass very clearly. This is why I chose not to use them for producing - you get a ridiculously unrealistic representation of the low end.
Room accoustics are essentially irrelevant, but yes, background noise is a consideration. I recommend open headphones under the assumption that people are smart enough to not have a 40 decibel computer next to their face, or live 10 feet from a main road. However, I think those conditions apply to very few people.
Considering how close the driver is to your ear, and how much noise the frame in open headphones will attenuate anyway, I don't think background noise is an important factor for most people. If background noise was such an issue, you certainly would not be able to use monitors in such an environment, so that goes against your "headphones only as a secondary option" argument.
Anyway... akin to monitoring in an over-treated room, closed headphones are a very unnatural way to hear music. Likewise, they are fatiguing as hell and most people I know would agree.
I still stand by "open/semi for producing, closed for recording/djing". |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
In all the closed backheadphones I have tried (HD25s, HD280s and 7509HDs, 7506s), I can hear the resonance in the bass very clearly. This is why I chose not to use them for producing - you get a ridiculously unrealistic representation of the low end.
Room accoustics are essentially irrelevant, but yes, background noise is a consideration. I recommend open headphones under the assumption that people are smart enough to not have a 40 decibel computer next to their face, or live 10 feet from a main road. However, I think those conditions apply to very few people.
Considering how close the driver is to your ear, and how much noise the frame in open headphones will attenuate anyway, I don't think background noise is an important factor for most people. If background noise was such an issue, you certainly would not be able to use monitors in such an environment, so that goes against your "headphones only as a secondary option" argument.
Anyway... akin to monitoring in an over-treated room, closed headphones are a very unnatural way to hear music. Likewise, they are fatiguing as hell and most people I know would agree.
I still stand by "open/semi for producing, closed for recording/djing". |
Good points and very true - but for my specific situation, I can hear the electrical cables crackle 20 foot away from my house, cars on the road and even the low fan noise produced by my imac, so closed back are the only way to go when I'm not able to use my monitors.
I don't think that any headphones, even open back, will properly reproduce bass frequencies to monitor worthy standards but the 7509HD's were just so much more detailed than anything else I've heard. And they should be, they're nearly $100 more than the others.
My point about ambient background noise is that it's cancelled out by your brain automatically but it makes you slightly less perceptive to those frequencies. If it's a low rumble or high pitched noise (road noise or dimmer switch/transformer buzz) you can get slight masking from not beingable to differentiate between external sound and your headphone reference source - this only really applies to headphones as you listen a lot quieter.
External ambient noise is not as much a factor (at least in our home studios) when using monitors as you are monitoring and relatively high DB's which will obviously drown out low ambient external noise. Yes it will come in to play for the quieter parts but nowhere near as much. |
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| kitphillips |
RANN, I have no idea what your talking about. Have you tried 240s? They attenuate a LOT of noise despite being open backed. Maybe you monitor at obscenely low levels, but I use fairly low levels myself and never have a problem with open backed phones, including when planes fly overhead (like most of sydney I'm under the flightpath). Closed back is a terrible idea for producing and that's almost universally accepted for a reason.
I'd just like to add that their bass response is fine, theres no reason headphones can't be just as effective as monitors, you can mix adequately on just about anything (provided your familiar with it) hence why you probably get away with the Sony. |
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| Theran |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
In all the closed backheadphones I have tried (HD25s, HD280s and 7509HDs, 7506s), I can hear the resonance in the bass very clearly. This is why I chose not to use them for producing - you get a ridiculously unrealistic representation of the low end.
Room accoustics are essentially irrelevant, but yes, background noise is a consideration. I recommend open headphones under the assumption that people are smart enough to not have a 40 decibel computer next to their face, or live 10 feet from a main road. However, I think those conditions apply to very few people.
Considering how close the driver is to your ear, and how much noise the frame in open headphones will attenuate anyway, I don't think background noise is an important factor for most people. If background noise was such an issue, you certainly would not be able to use monitors in such an environment, so that goes against your "headphones only as a secondary option" argument.
Anyway... akin to monitoring in an over-treated room, closed headphones are a very unnatural way to hear music. Likewise, they are fatiguing as hell and most people I know would agree.
I still stand by "open/semi for producing, closed for recording/djing". |
+1 |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
RANN, I have no idea what your talking about. Have you tried 240s? They attenuate a LOT of noise despite being open backed. Maybe you monitor at obscenely low levels, but I use fairly low levels myself and never have a problem with open backed phones, including when planes fly overhead (like most of sydney I'm under the flightpath). Closed back is a terrible idea for producing and that's almost universally accepted for a reason.
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I do listen at very low levels because I am paranoid about headphones damaging my hearing - I work with sound everyday and can't afford that (literally) - it's easy to keep pushing the levels and it's not a good thing when you have drivers less than a 1/2 inch from your ear drum.
I'm not saying open back aren't any good, for many this will be the solution - for my situation, I find my specific closed back headphones the best solution. I too have a small plane airport 5 mins from my house (under the direct flightpath). Ambient noise distracts me badly and as I said before the less things going on in the background the less my brain is having to filter and the more detail I can hear, especially as I don't like to monitor in headphones at loud levels (what you would would probably call normal levels).
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
I'd just like to add that their bass response is fine, theres no reason headphones can't be just as effective as monitors, you can mix adequately on just about anything (provided your familiar with it) hence why you probably get away with the Sony.
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Sorry but this is just not true. Headphones (any type) are simply not accurate enough (for various factors as discussed) to do a finished mix on. I don't know any pro engineers that wouldn't laugh you out the room for trying to convince them of this. Monitor speakers should be your primary reference source and headphones (if needed at all) as a basic secondary reference.
I'm sure theran's mix is very good (as per his other stuff! :) ) but personally I wouldn't ever try to mix a track without monitors, or even mainly do it on headphones then switch (becuase it's going to be way off when you hear it on the speakers again). I only use headphones when I have to keep it quiet (at night etc.) and honestly, I'm trying to think of a single studio session where we used headphones to mix on and I can't - not even for a secondary reference - we use one of the other sets of speakers. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Sorry but this is just not true. Headphones (any type) are simply not accurate enough (for various factors as discussed) to do a finished mix on. I don't know any pro engineers that wouldn't laugh you out the room for trying to convince them of this. Monitor speakers should be your primary reference source and headphones (if needed at all) as a basic secondary reference.
I'm sure theran's mix is very good (as per his other stuff! :) ) but personally I wouldn't ever try to mix a track without monitors, or even mainly do it on headphones then switch (becuase it's going to be way off when you hear it on the speakers again). I only use headphones when I have to keep it quiet (at night etc.) and honestly, I'm trying to think of a single studio session where we used headphones to mix on and I can't - not even for a secondary reference - we use one of the other sets of speakers. |
Well, I'm pretty sure I heard that Prydz does his mixdowns on headphones (could be confusing him with someone else in that vain). You might tell him and everyone else who does it (there are a lot) that he just can't do that, because its wrong.
Really, I think you have no clue, as per usual you think "the way we do things at work" is the way that everyone does things, and SHOULD do things. Perhaps its because you do mostly film and post production stuff at your work?
Regardless, most people don't have a professional studio with the space and money for monitors. A lot of those very same people produce great tracks and excellent mixdowns on headphones. I'm a bit tired of arguing with you about stuff like this TBH, I've stated my position, people can take it or leave it as per their choice. |
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