Originally posted by Q5echo
Obama kicked off his presidential campaign at Ayers and Dorne's house in 2007. That is a fact.
Proof?
Q5echo
holy my bad. i meant his Illinois Senate Campaign in '95.
terrible overlooking on my part. i made that post on my iphone eating a hamburger at Whataburger.
Lebezniatnikov
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Josh4 claims that Kurtz is a smear merchant hellbent on character assassination (because that is what Obama's campaign says), though he has not provided any specific evidence to support that notion as far as I can tell.
quote:
Howie Kurtz's piece (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...8092400797.html) in the Washington Post today reprints two emails I sent McCain campaign spokesman Michael Goldfarb privately last week. Kurtz got the emails because Goldfarb sent them to him, after sending them to other reporters to goad them into doing a story on me. Kurtz published my confidential emails to Goldfarb, having been contacted by Goldfarb to write the story.
I should reiterate two critical things: I have never claimed that Trig Palin is not Sarah Palin's biological son. In fact, I have gone to enormous lengths never to say that, going silent for two days to figure it out and decided to leave it alone. Why? Because I had no proof of anything, only questions. Since then, I have raised legitimate policy questions about what is undisputed in the public record, but I have not made any statements of fact I do not know to be true. That's my job. But I also expected the McCain campaign to do their job and at some point to provide evidence or a public statement setting the record straight, which they could persumably very easily do. So I waited three weeks, watched two interviews, scanned Nexis and Google for any confirmation of actual evidence, and then privately asked Goldfarb and two other people I know and like in the McCain campaign to confirm the evidentiary truth on the record. I did not raise this issue in public. I asked a question in private. But it has now been made public by Goldfarb and Kurtz, and since they are now in the public domain, here are the two emails I sent Goldfarb and he got Kurtz to reprint:
quote:
"I'm very sorry to say, it's come to this: can you confirm on the record that Trig Palin is Sarah Palin's biological son? . . . Since this is a crazy idea, it should be easy for you or someone to let me know, the most popular one-man political blog site in the world, what the truth is."
""I asked a simple question akin to asking whether you can confirm that the sky is blue. Here's the question in case it got lost: can you confirm on the record that Trig Palin is Sarah Palin's biological son? Can I please get a response of some sort, even if it is that you will not respond?"
I got no response, so I let it drop. Like everyone else, I have been trying to get some answers to some factual questions from the McCain campaign but they refuse to provide them. But for the McCain campaign to go to these lengths, violating core confidentiality of private good-faith questions, is something that has never happened to me before in journalism. I am also amazed that a fellow journalist would publish such emails in full. But since this is now all in the open, you deserve to know what your blogger has been trying to do in private for three weeks: just get a factual answer to a factual question on the record.
They won't. They cannot take the time to confirm on the record that Trig is Sarah's biological son, but they will try to smear the person asking. What does that tell you?
Not that I agree with Sullivan, but it does show the lengths that Kurtz will go to in order to launch a character assassination (printing confidential emails).
quote:
Furthermore, if Ayers really isn't such a bad guy, why doesn't Obama embrace him and his associations with him?
:conf:
Because Obama's "associations" with him are skin deep at best. Do you embrace the viewpoints of all of your neighbors that have invited you over for tea as well?
Lebezniatnikov
quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
holy my bad. i meant his Illinois Senate Campaign in '95.
terrible overlooking on my part. i made that post on my iphone eating a hamburger at Whataburger.
The whole thing is pretty ridiculous, as the Post has explained several times:
quote:
The first article in the mainstream press linking Obama to Ayers appeared in the London Daily Mail on February 2. It was written by Peter Hitchens, the right-wing brother of the left-wing firebrand turned Iraq war supporter, Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens cited the Ayers connection to bolster his argument that Obama is "far more radical than he would like us to know."
The Hitchens piece was followed by a Bloomberg article last week pointing to the Ayers connection as support for Hillary Clinton's contention that Obama might not be able to withstand the "Republican attack machine." Larry Johnson, a former counterterrorism official at the CIA and the State Department, predicted that the Republicans would seize on the Ayers case, and other Chicago relationships, to "bludgeon Obama's presidential aspirations into the dust."
The London Sunday Times joined the chorus this weekend by reporting that Republicans were "out to crush Barack by painting him as a leftwinger with dubious support".
The only hard facts that have come out so far are the $200 contribution by Ayers to the Obama re-election fund, and their joint membership of the eight-person Woods Fund Board. Ayers did not respond to e-mails and telephone calls requesting clarification of the relationship. Obama spokesman Bill Burton noted in a statement that Ayers was a professor of education at the University of Illinois and a former aide to Mayor Richard M. Daley, and continued:
Senator Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group, as he does all acts of violence. But he was an eight-year-old child when Ayers and the Weathermen were active, and any attempt to connect Obama with events of almost forty years ago is ridiculous.
In the short term, the person who has most to gain by speculation about Obama's acquaintance with a former terrorist is Hillary Clinton. The former First Lady likes to present herself as "tested and vetted" after years of exposure to Republican attacks, in contrast to Obama, a relative newcomer to hardscrabble presidential politics. Such arguments resonate with Johnson, the counterterrorism expert, who told me that he is a Clinton supporter, although not involved with the campaign.
But the Obama-Ayers link is a tenuous one. As Newsday pointed out, Clinton has her own, also tenuous, Weatherman connection. Her husband commuted the sentences of a couple of convicted Weather Underground members, Susan Rosenberg and Linda Sue Evans, shortly before leaving office in January 2001. Which is worse: pardoning a convicted terrorist or accepting a campaign contribution from a former Weatherman who was never convicted?
Whatever his past, Ayers is now a respected member of the Chicago intelligentsia, and still a member of the Woods Fund Board. The president of the Woods Fund, Deborah Harrington, said he had been selected for the board because of his solid academic credentials and "passion for social justice."
"This whole connection is a stretch," Harrington told me. "Barack was very well known in Chicago, and a highly respected legislator. It would be difficult to find people round here who never volunteered or contributed money to one of his campaigns."
04 Oct 2008 08:21 pm
In response to Gov. Sarah Palin's invocation of Barack Obama's "terrorist" "pal" William Ayers, Democrats have settled on a rhetorical response that inquires, innocently enough, whether Todd Palin's association with anti-American secessionists is fair game, especially in light of Palin's charge that Obama "is not a man who sees America as you and I do."
Todd Palin, a former member of the Alaska Independence Party, might well have seen America unlike his wife did -- that is, an America that one can secede from. He was comfortable belonging to and being associated with a political party whose founder seemed to delight in denouncing the principles that hold our union together.
Now -- maybe that's not fair. Maybe Todd Palin didn't believe in all of the principles the AIP espoused... indeed, the AIP seems to be a bit of a cultural relic in Alaska, a quirky old friend. A difference may be that many professional conservatives genuinely believe that Obama's association with William Ayers -- more accurately, he refusal NOT to associate with him -- is a genuine reflection of Obama's poor judgment, whereas no one really cares about why Sarah Palin stayed married to her husband. He seems like a good guy, a loving father, hard to find in a chaotic world, and that she didn't dump him because he associated with some dum-dum secessionists is probably a sign of good judgment.
"[Its] a laughable comparison," says Tracey Schmitt, Palin's spokesperson. "Bill Ayers was a founding member of the group that bombed the US capitol and the Pentagon."
On the other hand, there is very little evidence that Ayers's radical worldview ever influenced anything Barack Obama did, said or thought -- indeed, there is evidence of the opposite -- whereas one can easily assume that a husband and wife influence each other's beliefs quite often.
Forget about whether it's OK or intellectually honest or not.
Conservative groups have spent more than ten million dollars on ads tying Obama to Ayers, and so far, Americans don't seem to give a heck. (This tells us what about how we're going to make that mortgage payment?)
Maybe Palin's willingness to go there changes all that.
Call me crazy but it sounds like there's a bit of shooting the messenger going on here. I still haven't seen a rebuttal based on factual evidence, rather contradictory character shots based on an unrelated event. I haven't said Kurtz is the ultimate arbiter of truth here, but he has claimed to have seen the minutes and the record and has commented on it. Can someone prove that he is fabricating anything? If not, it seems that the counter-claims and criticisms are barking up the wrong tree at best if not an outright diversion.
shaolin_Z
Heh, the only terrorist he has any association with are the ones in Washington, and so does the rest of the establishment (which would include McCain as well). State sponsored terrorism abroad, while it may seem like a legitimate economic and military strategy to many here, is still terrorism.
Lebezniatnikov
Honestly, Ayers doesn't sound that terribly different in philosophy from a lot of the people that post here. Does that make us all tainted by association too?
shaolin_Z
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Honestly, Ayers doesn't sound that terribly different in philosophy from a lot of the people that post here. Does that make us all tainted by association too?
...? ...not really? :conf:
MisterOpus1
*sigh*
Here we go again:
and
quote:
Palin's reference was to Bill Ayers, one of the founders of the group the Weather Underground. Its members were blamed for several bombings, including a pipe bomb in San Francisco that killed a police officer and injured another. Obama, who was a child when the group was active, has denounced Ayers' radical views and activities.
While it is known that Obama and Ayers live in the same Chicago neighborhood, served on a charity board together and had a fleeting political connection, there is no evidence that they ever palled around. And it's simply wrong to suggest that they were associated while Ayers was committing terrorist acts.
Nonetheless, Palin made the comments at three appearances in separate states.
Punches in the dark. Exactly what you expect from a campaign in major desperation.
Unfortunately for the Republicans, this is not 2004, and this is not the Kerry campaign. The green light has been given:
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Democratic surrogates say they've been given the go-ahead from the Obama campaign to mention John McCain's associations with S&L kingpin Charles Keating and other historically tarnished creatures when asked about Obama's connection to ex-Weatherman William Ayers.
A senior Democrat who has had contact with Obama's high command points to Democratic strategist Paul Begala's comments on this morning's Meet the Press.
Begala noted that McCain once "sat on the board of a very right wing organization," the U.S. Council for World Freedom, led by a retired Army Maj. General named John Singlaub. The Anti-Defamation League allegedly called the CWF's parent organization a gathering place for racists and anti-Semites.
Said Begala: "Now, that's not John McCain. I don't think he is that. But, but, you know, the problem is that a lot of people know John McCain's record better than Governor Palin, and he does not want to play guilt by association or this thing could blow up in his face."
Other potential negative associations for McCain are his long-time South Carolina consultant, Richard Quinn, a publisher of a Southern heritagte magazine, and John Hagee, a pastor whose endorsement McCain solicited and later rejected.
Originally posted by noikeee
By "stupid" you probably mean "clever". Sadly chances are that the people will just buy into this.
"Outrageous" and "disgusting" come to my mind as well as proper words to describe this attitude.
Give people some credit, they will always surprise. =P
MisterOpus1
Game on:
quote:
chicagotribune.com
With friends like these ...
McCain finds his own radical friend
See photos of Bill Ayers, a former member of the Weather Underground who in 1995 hosted a campaign event for Obama
Steve Chapman
May 4, 2008
Can a presidential candidate justify a long and friendly relationship with someone who, back in the 1970s, extolled violence and committed crimes in the name of a radical ideology -- and who has never shown remorse or admitted error? When the candidate in question is Barack Obama, John McCain says no. But when the candidate in question is John McCain, he's not so sure.
Obama has been justly criticized for his ties to former Weather Underground member Bill Ayers, who in 1995 hosted a campaign event for Obama and in 2001 gave him a $200 contribution. The two have also served together on the board of a foundation. When their connection became known, McCain minced no words: "I think not only a repudiation but an apology for ever having anything to do with an unrepentant terrorist is due the American people."What McCain didn't mention is that he has his own Bill Ayers -- in the form of G. Gordon Liddy. Now a conservative radio talk-show host, Liddy spent more than 4 years in prison for his role in the 1972 Watergate burglary. That was just one element of what Liddy did, and proposed to do, in a secret White House effort to subvert the Constitution. Far from repudiating him, McCain has embraced him.
How close are McCain and Liddy? At least as close as Obama and Ayers appear to be. In 1998, Liddy's home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns -- including $1,000 this year.
Last November, McCain went on his radio show. Liddy greeted him as "an old friend," and McCain sounded like one. "I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family," he gushed. "It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."
Which principles would those be? The ones that told Liddy it was fine to break into the office of the Democratic National Committee to plant bugs and photograph documents? The ones that made him propose to kidnap anti-war activists so they couldn't disrupt the 1972 Republican National Convention? The ones that inspired him to plan the murder (never carried out) of an unfriendly newspaper columnist?
Liddy was in the thick of the biggest political scandal in American history -- and one of the greatest threats to the rule of law. He has said he has no regrets about what he did, insisting that he went to jail as "a prisoner of war."
All this may sound like ancient history. But it's from the same era as the bombings Ayers helped carry out as a member of the Weather Underground. And Liddy's penchant for extreme solutions has not abated.
In 1994, after the disastrous federal raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, he gave some advice to his listeners: "Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. ... Kill the sons of bitches."
He later backed off, saying he meant merely that people should defend themselves if federal agents came with guns blazing. But his amended guidance was not exactly conciliatory: Liddy also said he should have recommended shots to the groin instead of the head. If that wasn't enough to inflame any nut cases, he mentioned labeling targets "Bill" and "Hillary" when he practiced shooting.
Given Liddy's record, it's hard to see why McCain would touch him with a 10-foot pole. On the contrary, he should be returning his donations and shunning his show. Yet the senator shows no qualms about associating with Liddy -- or celebrating his service to their common cause.
How does McCain explain his howling hypocrisy on the subject? He doesn't. I made repeated inquiries to his campaign aides, which they refused to acknowledge, much less answer. On this topic, the pilot of the Straight Talk Express would rather stay parked in the garage.
That's an odd policy for someone who is so forthright about his rival's responsibility. McCain thinks Obama should apologize for associating with a criminal extremist. To which Obama might reply: After you.
More on our dear friend and fellow nutbag AM radio talk show host, G. Gordon Liddy:
quote:
As Media Matters for America has noted, Liddy served four and a half years in prison in connection with his conviction for his role in the Watergate break-in and the break-in at the office of the psychiatrist of Daniel Ellsberg, the military analyst who leaked the Pentagon Papers. Liddy has acknowledged preparing to kill someone during the Ellsberg break-in "if necessary"; plotting to murder journalist Jack Anderson; plotting with a "gangland figure" to murder Howard Hunt to stop him from cooperating with investigators; plotting to firebomb the Brookings Institution; and plotting to kidnap "leftist guerillas" at the 1972 Republican National Convention -- a plan he outlined to the Nixon administration using terminology borrowed from the Nazis. (The murder, firebombing, and kidnapping plots were never carried out; the break-ins were.) During the 1990s, Liddy reportedly instructed his radio audience on multiple occasions on how to shoot Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents and also reportedly said he had named his shooting targets after Bill and Hillary Clinton.
Liddy has donated $5,000 to McCain's campaigns since 1998, including $1,000 in February 2008. In addition, McCain has appeared on Liddy's radio show during the presidential campaign, including as recently as May. An online video labeled "John McCain On The G. Gordon Liddy Show 11/8/07" includes a discussion between Liddy and McCain, whom Liddy described as an "old friend." During the segment, McCain praised Liddy's "adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great," said he was "proud" of Liddy, and said that "it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program."
Additionally, in 1998, Liddy reportedly held a fundraiser at his home for McCain. Liddy was reportedly scheduled to speak at another fundraiser for McCain in 2000. The Charlotte Observer reported on January 23, 2000, that McCain's campaign vouched for Liddy's "character":
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His [McCain's] campaign officials said Liddy's character will appeal to many voters because he was following orders from President Nixon and kept silent afterward.
"His (Liddy's) judgment might be in question, but I don't think his character is," said Ed Walker, the York County chairman of McCain's campaign. "He was following orders just like any good soldier, and he didn't tell on anybody. He felt like he was on a mission and kept his silence."
Liddy's 2000 speech was reportedly canceled due to bad weather.
