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EU to reduce dependacy on Russian oil
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Europe today stepped up its attempts to reduce its exposure to potential Russian blackmail over energy supplies, unveiling an ambitious strategy aimed at weakening Russian giant Gazprom's domination of Europe's gas imports.
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Of six energy projects pinpointed for future development, commission officials said the two "absolute priorities" were to connect the three post-Soviet Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to European power grids and to forge ahead with the so-called "southern gas corridor" which is supposed to transport gas from the Caspian basin to Europe while, for political reasons, bypassing the world's two biggest gas producers, Russia and Iran.
Both projects are aimed at loosening Russia's grip.
By next year Brussels also aims to have set up a consortium of European companies to buy gas from the Caspian basin, supposed to be shipped to Europe in a new pipeline from Azerbaijan via Turkey and the Balkans to Austria from 2013. Gazprom currently controls all the pipelines sending gas to Europe from the east.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/13/eu-russia-energy |
Not that I care as practically all the UK's oil comes from Norway, but this is the price Russia pays for being a dick! They thought they could boss the EU around cos of East Europe's dependency on Russian oil, but now it's backfired and Russia might be looking at extreme economic catastrophes should they lose their major oil exporting partner
(Expect Russian wars breaking out in Central Asia...) |
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| Magnetonium |
Good for EU, maybe now they can stop their never-ending whining and crying about being too dependent on Russian energy. Sick and tired of reading about that in every single article they have on Russia.
Its better for Russia too IMO, now she can see more clearly who are its allies and who really needs its energy exports, the countries which it should look to in making better relations and long-term partnerships.
George, you still dont get it, do you - Russia has PLENTY of customers and will always have who need its energy. As long as the world needs fossil fuels and gas ...
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
(Expect Russian wars breaking out in Central Asia...) |
WTF is that supposed to mean? I hope you're aware that most of the Central Asian energy is being exported right now either to Europe (through Russia) or to China. And no, last time I checked, Russia has very warm relations with those countries.
EDIT: George, please tell me exactly how Russia is "bossing EU around"? |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Not that I care as practically all the UK's oil comes from Norway, but this is the price Russia pays for being a dick! They thought they could boss the EU around cos of East Europe's dependency on Russian oil, but now it's backfired and Russia might be looking at extreme economic catastrophes should they lose their major oil exporting partner
(Expect Russian wars breaking out in Central Asia...) |
in the long run it really doesn't matter where Europe purchases its oil. The US buys most of its petroleum from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, however, we protect supplies in the Middle East to prevent a price spike. The only benefit of this is to prevent a short term supply shock, which i guess is a real and substantial benefit in any event. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
It's kinda old news, and it fails to mention how Azerbaijan is now in a pretty weak position because of the Georgian war. It's likely that the prices will still be under a pretty strong Russian influence.
Anyway, real energy independence means going nuclear. Relying on fossil fuels is, and always will be, risky. But tell that to the green whacks who block trains with nuclear fuel every year... |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
It's kinda old news, and it fails to mention how Azerbaijan is now in a pretty weak position because of the Georgian war. It's likely that the prices will still be under a pretty strong Russian influence.
Anyway, real energy independence means going nuclear. Relying on fossil fuels is, and always will be, risky. But tell that to the green whacks who block trains with nuclear fuel every year... |
There are smart greens out there, and then there are hippies. Hippies dont want to live in huts without electricity, but the dare speak out against oil and nuclear power.
Though I do have to make a note that we do have technology and many options to sgnificantly decrease our oil dependence without going to nuclear. One of them is electric car.
But then the thought comes to mind ...
Who Killed The Electric Car? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
More oil to their best friend china.. life goes on. |
Exactly. Russia needs Chinese cheap products, China needs the fossils. LOTS OF FOSSIL FUELS. And look - Russians are extremely busy building pipelines to China as we speak. Poor George, his EU isnt gonna be able to achieve any political "advantage" here.
This is just the first random article I hit on Google, 2 years old.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11942857/
Russia plans natural-gas pipeline to China
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM...EZuxHnCeeeTXC2g
Russia, China sign landmark oil pipeline deal.
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Yes, yes, now. Europe is slowly losing Russia. George Smiley, is this what Europe really wants? Think about it.
Oh, and get this:
| quote: |
China is a leading buyer of Russian oil, which for now is delivered by railway tank car, and is the top foreign customer for Moscow's arms industry. |
WAIT. Wasnt EUROPE the top Russian energy client? Who's blackmailing who again? :conf:
While Europe claims "victory" in cutting Russian energy from its markets, it is STILL continuously crying about Russian domination of its energy supplies. What a bunch of rubbish. |
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| George Smiley |
Decisions decisions
I'm in two minds...do I put my confidence in the President of the European Commission to actually know what he's talking about, or do I take the word of a Russian nationalist (who ironically lives in Canada) who has a history of getting offended in every single thread about Russia and takes criticism of Russia as a personal insult?
Anyway, Russia cares nothing for the European nations, as they've proved not only in very recent history, but also over the last 60 years. I don't know what your problem is with the EU not wanting their oil supply to be so dependant on such an untrustworthy source?
Do you honestly think that the EU can rely on Russia for a stable supply?
If it is possible for you to look at the world from a neutral perspective, other than through your "Russia is always right" filter, then surely you can see that it would be unwise for any nation or region to rely solely on one major source of energy.
| quote: | | China is a leading buyer of Russian oil, which for now is delivered by railway tank car, and is the top foreign customer for Moscow's arms industry |
It says "a" leading buyer, not "the" leading buyer, doesn't it? And the only reason China is the biggest arms customer is that all the countries that make high quality weapons won't sell to China, so they are forced to make do with substandard Russian arms |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
More oil to their best friend china.. life goes on. |
Well the two countries have certainly become close of late, but I wouldn't really consider them "best friends" considering their history...friends of convenience would probably be more accurate (and only then when it's convenient!) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Russians Rox my sox!
I'm not a nationalist |
That was to magnetonium, not you
The rest of your post is good and common sense in my opinion |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Decisions decisions
I'm in two minds...do I put my confidence in the President of the European Commission to actually know what he's talking about, or do I take the word of a Russian nationalist (who ironically lives in Canada) who has a history of getting offended in every single thread about Russia and takes criticism of Russia as a personal insult?
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Because I dont like stupid comments that lack facts or even logic when it comes to Russian-related politics. Seriously, listen to yourself - is Europe "dependent" on Russian energy? Has Russia at any time in history just shut off its energy supplies from Europe? Or has it ever occured to you that resource exports is so important to Russia, they even nationalized it. For Russia, its is almost essential for survival to maintain high energy supplies for Europe. Unless you think its just throwing billions away in building massive infrastructure and pipelines to ensure Europe is 100% secured and safe to receive Russian energy NO MATTER what the concern is. Have you heard of a project called Nord Stream? Look it up, maybe then things will make more sense to you.
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Anyway, Russia cares nothing for the European nations
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Has it occured to you that its also the other way around, or even mutual? What's so constructive has Europe ever done for Russia? Besides, does Europe REALLY WANT a strong and successful Russia? I doubt it.
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Do you honestly think that the EU can rely on Russia for a stable supply? |
Without a doubt. Its in best interests of both Europe and Russia. Russia has never failed in its obligations of energy supplies to Europe. Brief disputes with Ukraine and Belarus have not stopped this, they only encouraged better routes such as Nord Stream (being built).
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If it is possible for you to look at the world from a neutral perspective, other than through your "Russia is always right" filter, then surely you can see that it would be unwise for any nation or region to rely solely on one major source of energy.
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Russia is not always right. We need to talk about REAL issues surrounding Russia and not just some rubbish and Russophobia. Because thats pretty much all I hear and read, though I know that Russophobia sells better. Its unfortunate. And you won't make good friends with Russkies with that attitude. You think you could treat it them some barbarians or like after a Versailles treaty, but its not wise.
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the only reason China is the biggest arms customer is that all the countries that make high quality weapons won't sell to China, so they are forced to make do with substandard Russian arms |
Does it make more sense now why I have to keep "defending" Russia? Besides, how much truth is in this ... Russia isn't selling 12th century pikes or T-34's. Kalashnikovs might be less "sophisticated" than American counterparts, but they are a) cheaper b) simpler c) as effective under most situations d) better and easier to maintain. What is the world's most renown gun in the world again? M16?
EDIT: Like seriously, George ... Russia doesnt make the world's BEST weapons but they're certainly not or antique, jesus, I thought you'd know that by now ... Americans spend a couple billion on a shuttle technology thats shaky at best (though dam sophisticated and impressive), while Russians use Soyuz capsules which are hundred times cheaper - and guess what - they saved International Space Station because shuttles were grounded for a long time. Whats better??? Thats not the correct question. Need more examples?
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| Magnetonium |
^^^ Edited the above post. |
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| Magnetonium |
This is a special reply to George and to others who are sick and tired of my "Russian nationalism" on this forum - so this is an important read. I hope there will be repleis to this. Its a bit more on me, something that I havent talked about nor something you'd read like this from me again - a totally honest response. Its the issue of Russian nationalism.
I am not pro-Putin and I am not supporing Russian tanks rolling over former Soviet sphere and returning to the "glorious" past. I am not ing stupid. Thats the main point.
I was born in Russia in the early-mid 80s, and was just about to grasp the whole incoming Perestroika movement. As I grew older, I learned from my surroundings, lived though much of the change, then the subsequent dreadful Yeltsin era, and came to Canada in late 90s.
Let me tell you - there are huge problems in Russia. I dont know where to start. First of all, most problems are rooted in the peoples' mentality, the education system and the media. In the 90s, the truth came out. Communist crimes and "achievements" were finally exposed, it was a shock to me and denial to others. As the country crumbled and nationalism took a blow to its pride, Chechens reduced Russian armies to a laughing stock, and entire country took up drinking like a religion. Well, actually, they drank heavily before, to survive the whole socialist/communist horse, pass the time, that sort of thing. In the 1990s, the borders opened up and everything turned loose. Many people lost things, from life money savings, to jobs, pride, families, many things. Drinking became heavy, all kinds of drugs slipped in through open borders, HIV exploded like Spanish Influenza of the last century.
Thousands of hard-neck experienced officers and special troops lost their jobs, and took up illegal activities using their skills and assets. Constant mafia firefights ensued, often open in the streets. Car bombings, shootings, drive-by attacks, assassinations, you name it - I've heard it all and even seen couple. Groups were fighting and weeding one another out, consolidating power and control.
The government was absolutely weak. Regions literally became independent, and in some cases kicked government officials / taxmen out. Corruption became a daily thing, partially because workers weren't being being for months. Plus others did it, and people followed. It was common for my grandfather to carry some cash in case he got pulled over, and once he just gave the police officer money through half-open driver's window before the cop needed to say anything when got pulled over.
Surely they gained freedoms and rights but they lost everything else. Even rights and freedoms weren't guaranteed. Government was powerless. Everyone from journalists to officials to criminals to common people died or suffered.
People because more selfish and ignorant. Only the older people I could generally talk to on the streets, and even those were very sympathetic to the Stalin past. So much petty crimes and injustice I witnessed. And I was only 10-12. I am lucky to be able as once I was almost at the wrong place at the wrong time by fraction of a minute, almost in time to witness an execution of a businessmen by a rival.
There were no witnesses to most crimes. There was no justice or security. Teachers didnt get paid for months. Infrastructure and roads werent being worked on. Illegal immigration swarmed my city. Brains and educated people left the country en masse, mainly to Western Europe and USA. And so on and on and on.
And still, there was a lot of bull on the media and in the education system, it only took me some time to figure out. The worst thing was that many people were bad, many families were swallowed by alcoholism and disfunctionality. And you can imagine how the kids were growing up.
I was lucky. I didnt fall for drugs, alcohol or even smoking. I remember vividly, like it was yesterday, most of the details and things I've seen. From the best moments of my life (seriously), to the worst. I went through some physical abuse when I was really young, too. My family lineage, my culture (Cossacks) we were completely devastated by the last 80 years of turmoil and change.
My father is a dumb nationalist who even after leaving Russia, still sticks to nationalist values. I dont, despite my posts. He is the hardest person you'll probably have to know. He doesnt take from anyone, and he is full of himself. He is the example of how messed up Russia is.
Basically, the point of all this is that things are very bad in Russia right now. Extremely. Recent Putin's miracle is now being reversed by economic collapse and Western withdrawal of much of money and investment from Eastern Europe.
I talked to one of my relatives last year, and he said that hardly anything has changed since 1991. Surely more people have jobs and nicer cars, but people's attitudes, jealousy, corruption and ignorance are still there.
These are the things we should talk about. We Russians dont want to listen to the horse about some Russian domination over Europe over oil/gas which is a joke. The real issues arent Russian government's takeover media and press, or alleged authoritarian return. Surely the media is very biased, I am very critical of it late on the Russian forums - some of my favourite political shows/series have "disappeared" to be replaced by some boring .
Putin / Medvedev are the least to blame for many of the problems in Russia. Because they dont have the power to change it. Its the people's mentality, the pride, the leajousy, the corruption and crime. They dont bring authoritarian style - they simply fight the dark forces which are depriving Russia of progress - you really think that Khodorkovski and Berezovski are ing angels? They are the ones who fought to seize the country for themselves and British-American interests, sort of closer to Yeltsin's style of giving out everything to anyone.
I hated personally the West for simply ignoring and applauding Yeltsin's shelling of the parliament in 1993 when he clearly went authoritarian. The media's response in the West was far more dismal than when Putin came to power and the whole Western media freakshow began. But in fact, Putin has started scraping the rust off the rusty and collapsing metal structure. He isnt doing things for pride or for some special interest alone, he knows EXACTLY how bad the situation is. I've listened to his speeches. Russian people understand what he did and what he says, you guys dont. Yes, he took over media, its wrong, but you should look at to who owned it previously and how much love those oligarchs had from the people. We all knew they were all crooked. Two wrongs dont make a right, but its surely a tiny bit better than listening to Gusinski inciting national upheaval or hatred to an already tense situation.
Yes, Russia was wrong in declaring independence of South Ossetia / Abkazia, and probably exagerrating the whole Poland/Czech defense system, all are the wrong political approach methods because they clearly wont work and will not make friends.
Its part of a continuing problem. Its a struggle for Russia to find its place and try to see whats right, what good to do, and set balances. So far things are very bleak, but no matter how bad things are, Russian people are proud of their heritage, and though we have all suffered in some way from history and present, we all will not take lightly dumb and idiocy when it comes to Russian politics. (Europe being dependent on Russia MY ASS, Russia cant even depend on itself!)
What is Europe trying to achieve by constantly harrassing and criticizing Russia? You might touch a nerve of Putin, but you're alienating Russian people. And thats the worst for you in the long term. I live in the 1990s in Russia, and I've seen what Western "business" was trying to feed us there. We were outright pissed when they came in and were making money at our expense, without contributing much other than keeping status quo.
I hate the communist past, I hated Lenin, Stalin, you name it - it has done long-term irreversible damage to the people and the country. There are things that I want, things that I am nostalgic about, things I wish that could've been, but I am very pessimistic. I think things will continue deteriorating in Russia for decades to come. The change for good will start to come when Russian population hits 100 million and when China starts laying claim to Eastern Siberia, sometime in the latter part of the 21st century.
I am against these so-called "liberal" Kasparov's (liberal my ass) and I also criticize Putin's party for some things, like failing to deal properly with issues in South Caucasus, and many others. But there are no other options in Russia right now. Sad but true. Too much dam nationalism, nazism, ignorance, jealousy, crime, AIDS, corruption, and people mainly who dont want whats better for their children and for the country.
Well, anyways, its a rant, there's many other things, much worse, I got many other actual stories and experiences of negative and positive things, but what I said I felt like getting these things off my chest ...
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