|
evolution and the soul (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Lira |
^^^ Just wondering - is she a psychologist too? It seems to fit the stereotype like a glove :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Frenchie
Your mom likes Daft Punk? |
The world would implode if Discovery were her favourite album :D
But, no, she hates electronic music. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sushipunk
So you saying you're gonna be stoned soon then? :p |
i find your repeated accurate accusations to be completely unwarranted! |
|
|
| nchs09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, this isn't another one of my religious-bashing threads.
i was merely curious: since evolution is irrefutable, and since many theists subscribe to evolution, at what stage did human(monkey)-kind evolve/receive a soul?
is it like completing a level of a computer game and being rewarded with a big gun? "hey now monkey, you've grown opposable thumbs! here, have a soul as recognition of your new place in the world" |
Whats a soul? |
|
|
| Sushipunk |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i find your repeated accurate accusations to be completely unwarranted! |
:D |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by nchs09
Whats a soul? |
A place with lots of Asians and no dogs :D |
|
|
| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Project-K
I'm going to say it appeared as humans evolved into cultural creatures. Firstly, because culture is what best defines humans as opposed to other animals (which supposedly don't have souls), and the state of soul after death is determined by right and wrong, which are cultural concepts.
Of course the soul is a bunch of bull so there's no point in trying to cram it within scientific theories where it doesn't belong. But if I were a crazy pseudo-scientist that's probably how I'd try to rationalize my dumb beliefs. |
It makes no sense to me whatsoever that mere cognizance defines any sort of ethereal existence - just as you said, paltry morals are merely human values that are the result of ephemeral society - they're bull. They don't mean a thing. However, there are some things that I believe are prevalent throughout all forms of sentient life: empathy, warmth, desire, fulfillment - these aren't things society created nor are they mere biological functions exclusive to humans. Perhaps pleasurable sensibilities are heightened in our species as that is simply the way we have evolved, and as such, we have created numerous industries to cater to this and profit the individual within his or her social niche, but I still hold that certain near-indescribable values define a soul, if anything does. If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand - who knows? Conceptually, this is what makes the most sense to me. Not to say that I truly "believe" in souls or anything like that, but I don't like to outright deny the existence of something that cannot really be proven or disproven by any current means. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand - who knows? |
yeah, that's as good a position as any.
i also think that if god really did want to set us apart from all other life on earth, he should have given us the force instead. |
|
|
| nefardec |
I actually read a book about this called "Shamans, Sorcerers, and Saints", by Brian Hayden.
Basically it is written from the viewpoint of a cultural ecologist with a keen interest in anthropology. As a cultural ecologist, he always asks the question, what environmental factors influenced people to do this or begin behaving like that?
The author sees the evolution of emotions as an ecological response: basically early human ancestors had a pretty ty existence, scavenging carcasses, eating nuts and berries, and getting mauled by saber tooth tigers all the time. In order to survive, they had to band together in close knit communities, not unlike nomadic communities such as the bedouin. Those early humans with more emotions felt more strongly for one another and as a result they stuck together, cared for one another and were able to survive. Those who were anti-social and had poorly developed emotions died off. He claism this was the origin of the soul.
Later on, he describes larger tribal communities, so called traditional socities. These communities were similar, but were larger due to technological advances and different climates. Survival was still based on emotional development. With more emotions and larger groups of people, violence between men became very widespread and typical. As a result, emotional bonds within tribes/clans were strengthened almost to an unreal level (eg celtic berserkers, although they came much later). The author claims the extatic and psychedelic experiences gained from psychoactive plants, extended dance, rhythm, pain, sleep deprivation, etc were able to create unbreakable emotional bonds between people. (once youve tripped or blazed with some guy you're great friends, etc) Shamanic behavior begins here, people who had traumatic experiences in life, near death experiences that made them more sensitive to visions and ecstatic states became healers, medicine men, etc. They would take drugs and go into the deepest caves and trip balls and then tell people about it.
This was the basis of traditional religion, which is more about a kind of universal life force than anything, the idea that the material world and the spiritual world are the same, like water and ice, merely different forms of the same matter.
Then as people began to settle down and cultivate , they got a little testy and cocky and overprotective of their stuff. Some people started to get powerful and wanted to protect their position and prestige. Animals were basically the ferraris of the prehistoric world. (to this day we use "stock market" coming from livestock of course) In order to preserve their status, the powerful people would throw huge parties, feasts, in which people would give each other gifts. The person who was able to give the most gives was the richest and most powerful. traditional socities like this still exist in southeast asia. That person would also get the most gifts back as others tried to be his best friend, and so he was able to consolidate his power.
Besides doing this, however, the emerging elite class started form cults, secret socities. Whereas in more basic societies, the shaman is the only one who has the mystical experience, in these more complex societies, the elite cults, usually based on ancestor veneration were also able to share in the mysteries. This sort of cult extended well into recent history - the roman religion for example is a prime example of an elite cult (cult of isis, etc) As city states developed into empires, these empires began to accumulate all sorts of different cult followers and the romans for the most part let people do whatever they wanted. It is said that a lot of the roman and greek deities are borrowed from all around the region. The larger empires' pantheistic religions were more of a kind of pork barrel cult system meant to appease different factions and constituencies, and some gained fashionable status while others died out.
Christianity is another classic cult. It was a judaistic cult for the poor and disenfranchised - it gave out food to those in need, and for the first time in cult history it allowed minority groups and women in its ranks. this made it a potent force. that combined with its strict 'there is only god but god' mantra and militant attitude, made it extremely potent and it spread like wildfire. eventually it became fashionable among some elites of rome and they started holding masses in their basements (basically like loft parties or raves lol) in so called 'house churches'. It was highly illegal for a while, but then one day emperor constantine decided to make a deal that if he won a tough battle he would convert to christianity. He won, and it became the official religion of all the empire. yet the empire was very heterogeneous and so the religion adopted all sorts of strange practices from different peoples - from the celts we have astrological practices such as the celebration of the winter solstice (christmas was not when jesus was born, sorry), and from the germanic peoples we have the christmas tree (the world tree, as in scandinavian myth), etc, etc ,etc by this time the soul was an academic subject already discussed for hundreds if not thousands of years by people
the rest is history
you can also read a book called 'the god gene' which basically says that humans are hard wired for spirituality. (again this doesnt mean god, but could be thought of more as a universal force of life, vibration, which could be the essence of quantum physics, of grand unified theory, of yaweh, and allah, and monistic idealism) (the idea that everything is made of consciousness) |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| that's a ing ace post, cheers. |
|
|
| BTG |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that's a ing ace post, cheers. |
that.
an ace post goes like "pics or stfu"
i'm not going to read that. neither will you (besides pkc)
my opinion:
since when does religion have to be the opposite of evolution?
i belive in dinosaurs and jesus...what does that make me?
edit: don't say highschool drop out. it's a cheapshot and i have low self esteem. |
|
|
| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
If souls exist, every form of life we both know and don't know possesses one equally - or collectively, or in some sort of hierarchy according to things we couldn't possibly understand |
Yeah.
Its the expression of You that the akashic informational field of the universe feels during the moment of your existence, both collectively, individually, and any number of other human categorizations that mean nothing to the "real" reality that we are swimming in.
Because we are rational and also emote, I imagine that we are following the blueprint just as it functions, except with some "evolution" kicked into a certain physical and psychical shape.
There's no way it is merely rational and emotional though, and neither are we probably... ;) |
|
|
| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by BTG
that.
an ace post goes like "pics or stfu"
i'm not going to read that. neither will you (besides pkc)
my opinion:
since when does religion have to be the opposite of evolution?
i belive in dinosaurs and jesus...what does that make me?
edit: don't say highschool drop out. it's a cheapshot and i have low self esteem. |
A highsc---
ah. damn. i got nothing then. :D |
|
|
|
|
