Originally posted by Skipper
Most didn't. When the markets lose close to 10% the day it doesn't pass, people get pretty spooked into getting the thing through.
Having the reserve and foresight to listen to the voice of reason within a panic is what defines a good decision.
US citizens now have the next 'X ' many years to pay off the results of this rash spooked decision.
but im gonna get off the internet now.. ive had far to many drinks tonight, and need to spin some deep dark drunken progressive. My new muse: Jay Lumen - Surface Reborn (Quivver Remix)...sooo goood. yayaya
cheers
Skipper
quote:
Originally posted by feelgood
Having the reserve and foresight to listen to the voice of reason within a panic is what defines a good decision.
And virtually no one did that, Obama or otherwise. I don't think another US politician would have acted differently if they had been in shoes at that time.
All I'm saying is that it's unfair to pin the TARP, successful or not, on Obama. Wasn't he not even the democratic candidate at that point?
If the point of this thread is to discuss his policies and intentions, then do that.
feelgood
quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
And virtually no one did that, Obama or otherwise. I don't think another US politician would have acted differently if they had been in shoes at that time.
SniFFleS
quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
And virtually no one did that, Obama or otherwise. I don't think another US politician would have acted differently if they had been in shoes at that time.
All I'm saying is that it's unfair to pin the TARP, successful or not, on Obama. Wasn't he not even the democratic candidate at that point?
If the point of this thread is to discuss his policies and intentions, then do that.
He's not fully to blame but it does just show that he doesn't understand the flawed US economy. He is like most others in Washington that think they have to throw money at the problem instead of fixing it.
Ron Paul understands how the economy works because he follows Mises and Austrian Economics. People who follow Austrian Economics have been predicting this collapse for years.
If you can't understand the problem you cannot fix it and Obama does not. Also congress first voted against TARp.
feelgood
quote:
Originally posted by SniFFleS
Ron Paul understands how the economy works because he follows Mises and Austrian Economics. People who follow Austrian Economics have been predicting this collapse for years.
+1
Skipper
quote:
Originally posted by SniFFleS
He's not fully to blame but it does just show that he doesn't understand the flawed US economy. He is like most others in Washington that think they have to throw money at the problem instead of fixing it.
How would you suggest it "be fixed"? By doing nothing?
If you look back to the depression, when money supply was actually reduced, the economy was in the tank for arguably 10 or 11 years. Are you really saying that by increasing government spending, that 10 or 11 years would have been longer?
While every dollar of government spending during a recession does not equate to a dollar of GDP growth as there is leakage and savings to consider of course, when (aside from after the depression) has the American government acted differently? Every subsequent downturn since then has been handled with increased spending or tax cuts or some combination thereof. I'm not convinced that doing nothing would have yielded better results in those cases.
And by government spending, I do not mean bailing out banks or buying bad assets as the TARP is intended to do.
TARP was voted against initially because it didn't include enough politician pet projects , er, money for main street. NOT because people were fundamentally objecting to the program itself.
m2j
'Obamamobile' unveiled
- Mark Nichol
The Cadillac One has only just been unveiled, but it already has two nicknames: 'Obamamobile' and 'The Beast'. And it's ironic that just after Obama advocated a bailout for GM after years of building big, fuel-inefficient cars that nobody wanted, he's now had it build the ultimate one for himself.
Still, President Obama will be a targeted man come January 20th, when he's inaugurated as US President. So, the Cadillac One is shod in three-inch thick bulletproof glass and eight-inch think armour plating, and is hermetically sealed to protect him from a chemical weapons attack. It has a 10-disc CD changer, though, so it's not all doom-and-gloom.
There's a night vision camera in the front, and shotguns and tear gas cannons are stored in the flanks. There's even a few bottles of Obama's blood in there in case he needs an emergency transfusion - though who'll perform the operation is unclear.
The petrol tank is filled with a foam that prevents it from exploding along with a panic button in the Presidential quarters, as well as a satellite phone linking the car directly to the Whitehouse. The tyres are Kevlar reinforced and puncture-resistant, too, and cover wheels that can still work even of the tyres are blown off.
That said, it's never getting anywhere particularly fast, as it has a 0-100 km per hour time of 15 seconds and 3.40km per hour fuel consumption, so at the equivalent of about $534,000 it probably provides the worst price-to-performance ratio of any car ever.
President-Elect Obama Not Giving Up His BlackBerry Without a Fight!
Posted in News & Rumors on 08 Jan 2009 14:03 by James Falconer
Barack Obama Loves His BlackBerry
President-elect Barack Obama is having a tough time giving up his BlackBerry. For security reasons (both the Secret Service and Obama's legal team are worried his device will get hacked) he has been asked to 'give it up'... But as we all know, letting go of one of a communication tool as effective as a BlackBerry could/is a hard thing to do.
When asked to comment on the situation, Obama replied:
"They're going to pry it out of my hands...You know, this town's full of lawyers. I don't know if you've noticed…and they have a lot opinions. And so I'm still in a scuffle around that, but it–look, it's the hardest thing about being president. How do you stay in touch with the flow of everyday life..."
Looks like he's not going to give up his CrackBerry without a tussle. Gotta love the guy.
... ok i'm done not really contributing to this thead. bye.
darcnight
quote:
Originally posted by feelgood
Correct, businesses need capital/borrowing money to grow, however true profitability and true growth stem from investing personal capital, not credit. Infusing more government credit into an unstable economy which is built on credit (akin to house built on sand) is just going to prolong and exacerbate the problem and unfortunately, the amount of government sand is finite.
Providing businesses with more credit options does nothing to stimulate the economy. Providing more supply, does not provide more demand.
While you can argue that it would be foolhardy not to get some sort of government intervention, you have to put the figures into context. Think of what $800b of taxpayer money could do for a health care system, an education system, transportation system... etc.
So.. do you panic and drop all this money into a sinking ship, which despite your best efforts is irrepairable. Or do you put this money into something that is universally accepted as a worthwhile investment.
Again, Obama's bailout is identical in principle to Roosevelt's new deal which did nothing for improvement as unemployment, gdp and private investment figures show.
0.02$
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Did you just say that the new deal did nothing for improvement?
wow. just. wow.
The new deal is what created the American middle class. And a strong and healthy middle class is the backbone of a strong and stable economy.
there's so much mis-information in this thread it's sickening...ESPECIALLY when it comes to comments on health care.
simply put: Canada's system > US system...one only needs to look at the fact that leading cause for personal bankruptcy in the US...ARE HEALTH CARE COSTS.
"insurance" in the US only covers so much...get too sick...you're ed.
As far as the credit crisis...Obama was right to support TARP..and anyone who didnt want to see an immediate global depression was...the top banks in the world held a gun to the governments head...they needed that bridge financing and got it.
was it done with the correct oversight and transparency? hell no.
but that's what happens when you have NO REGULATION of an industry...pretty hard to regulate an out of control monster in a few days.
Kellyboop
Things I like about Obama
- Good charisma, he's a likeable person who represents a new generation of American politicians. Out with the old in with the new.
- Biden - this man is smart as a whip when it comes to foreign relations. Go Obiden!
Things I dislike
- Everyone's insanely high expectations of him. A friend of mine in the US told me after the elections it was like the second coming of Jesus. The guy has a lot to clean up so I hope people will go easy on him when he doesn't magically change the world and prove unicorns are real.
Overall I like Obama and wish him the best; he's a smart guy and has been putting together a good team to advise him.
SniFFleS
quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
How would you suggest it "be fixed"? By doing nothing?
If you look back to the depression, when money supply was actually reduced, the economy was in the tank for arguably 10 or 11 years. Are you really saying that by increasing government spending, that 10 or 11 years would have been longer?
While every dollar of government spending during a recession does not equate to a dollar of GDP growth as there is leakage and savings to consider of course, when (aside from after the depression) has the American government acted differently? Every subsequent downturn since then has been handled with increased spending or tax cuts or some combination thereof. I'm not convinced that doing nothing would have yielded better results in those cases.
And by government spending, I do not mean bailing out banks or buying bad assets as the TARP is intended to do.
TARP was voted against initially because it didn't include enough politician pet projects , er, money for main street. NOT because people were fundamentally objecting to the program itself.
Yes "Do Nothing" is better than the government trying to reallocate funds that they don't have. In 2002 Bush told Greenspan to do whatever it took to get them out of a recession(so he could get re-elected) It worked but created a false housing boom because rates were way to low, now this recession is 10 times worse.
The thing is because there was not a proper recession in 2002 we are now feeling the effects.
A recession is a normal part of the economic cycle and it has to happen.
The great depression lasted so long because of years of government intervention. The market can work itself out if given a chance, but when government gets in the way it only takes money away from successful business to failing business. Or print money and create inflation.
dEsidEL
I wonder if Tiesto will close...?
quote:
Obama Inauguration Concert A Who's Who Of Top Music Acts
Tuesday January 13, 2009
CityNews.ca Staff
Beyonce, U2's Bono, Bruce Springsteen - the lineup for an inaugural concert celebrating Barack Obama on Sunday is a who's who of top names in music.
In fact appearing on the bill has become a coveted gig - with everyone from John Mellencamp, Usher and Sheryl Crow, to Josh Groban and Stevie Wonder performing.
The president-elect and his family will attend the concert at the Lincoln Memorial, and Obama is expected to speak during the events.
The theme for the show, titled We Are One, is national unification. The artists have been asked not to perform their hits but songs appropriate for the occasion. One of the tunes on the set list is Sam Cooke's A Change Is Gonna Come - though it's not clear at this point who will be performing it.
Other entertainers scheduled to appear are Garth Brooks, Mary J. Blige, Herbie Hancock, Heather Headley, John Legend, and Jennifer Nettles.
Denzel Washington, Queen Latifah, and Jamie Foxx will be among those reading historical passages at the event.
HBO televises the concert at 7pm, and it's being offered on an open feed to cable and satellite distributors, meaning anyone who wants to watch the show can do so for free.
Singer-actress Beyonce arrives at the 66th Annual Golden Globe Awards held at the Beverly Hilton Hotel on January 11, 2009 in Beverly Hills, California. (Photo by Kevork Djansezian/Getty Images)
