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Exporting from Ableton (pg. 7)
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| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Not sure why I bothered opening one of your posts. But clipping can be used as an extreme form of brickwall limiting, and its better to have a slightly clipped mix than to have a perfectly normalised mix which is too low. Clipping only becomes a problem when its catching more than just peaks, but ideally 2-3 samples of each beat with a kick drum should be clipping IMO. |
Clipping on a DAW summed mix is ridiculous, I mean part of why they ask for headroom is to avoid the clipping. Thanks for ending the debate on that fail note, and good job at taking the debate back to point 0. Your the winner of this thread, but its officially done. :p |
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| kitphillips |
| Look at a professionally mastered track and zoom in on the waveform. most of them have a couple of samples in clipping somewhere. |
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| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Look at a professionally mastered track and zoom in on the waveform. most of them have a couple of samples in clipping somewhere. |
We're talking about mixes prior to mastering, your talking about post mastering and likely after analogue processing, changing the topic and making an irrelevant point at the same time. Lets just move on. |
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| joe2548 |
ok thanks guys but no ones answered my question which is why i started this topic... :S
im using ozone on the master channel in ableton to do my mastering... then exporting the track from ableton.... do i need to use dithering?
if so what type of dithering?
what effect will the dithering have on the exported track? |
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| thecYrus |
| quote: | Originally posted by joe2548
ok thanks guys but no ones answered my question which is why i started this topic... :S
im using ozone on the master channel in ableton to do my mastering... then exporting the track from ableton.... do i need to use dithering?
if so what type of dithering?
what effect will the dithering have on the exported track? |
if the project runs on different bit/samplerate than what you want to export you need to use dithering. |
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| dannib |
kismet.
Clipping is used all the time as a mastering process. mastering engineers will often clip the AD converters instead of using a limiter. It often gives better results depending on whats required.
I also know that many house producers will clip their kick drums slightly to gain loudness which is obviously very debatable. In other words, clipping can be used creatively. |
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| echosystm |
dithering has always confused me a little bit...
for those of us who aren't running a 48 bit protools rig, our soundcards are all dealing in 24bit integers, at a hardware level. however, our daws are all running at 32/64bit float. doesn't this mean we should all have a dither on our master, to 24 bit fixed? what are the implications of not dithering anyway? are the excess bits simply truncated?
also, afaik, all mp3 encoders have 32 bit float internal precision. however, none of them take 32bit float as input. so, you end up dithering to 24 bit fixed, for it to only get upsampled again! wtf? |
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| thecYrus |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
dithering has always confused me a little bit...
for those of us who aren't running a 48 bit protools rig, our soundcards are all dealing in 24bit integers, at a hardware level. however, our daws are all running at 32/64bit float. doesn't this mean we should all have a dither on our master, to 24 bit fixed? what are the implications of not dithering anyway? are the excess bits simply truncated?
also, afaik, all mp3 encoders have 32 bit float internal precision. however, none of them take 32bit float as input. so, you end up dithering to 24 bit fixed, for it to only get upsampled again! wtf? |
dithering is not for the internal processing it's for the destination file format. so if you're exporting to a 44,1kHz 16bit wave and your project is running at 96kHz 24bit you want to dither to get a better (musical) rounding algorithm for the rate conversion. |
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| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dannib
kismet.
Clipping is used all the time as a mastering process. mastering engineers will often clip the AD converters instead of using a limiter. It often gives better results depending on whats required.
I also know that many house producers will clip their kick drums slightly to gain loudness which is obviously very debatable. In other words, clipping can be used creatively. |
Yah, I already know this, but like I told kttphilips, what does that have to do with what we've been talking about? The whole discussion was about what we are to do at the mixing level, prior to mastering. On the topic of clipping, as mixers we dont want clipping on a DAW summed mix at all, what a mastering engineer does with the mix after we've handed to them is whatever they choose to do to get the best mix, which could including clipping using analogue gear. But, why are you two moving the goal posts to another topic in which no one was debating? Are you guys really that desperate for conflict or disagreement? :wtf: |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
Yah, I already know this, but like I told kttphilips, what does that have to do with what we've been talking about? The whole discussion was about what we are to do at the mixing level, prior to mastering. On the topic of clipping, as mixers we dont want clipping on a DAW summed mix at all, what a mastering engineer does with the mix after we've handed to them is whatever they choose to do to get the best mix, which could including clipping using analogue gear. But, why are you two moving the goal posts to another topic in which no one was debating? Are you guys really that desperate for conflict or disagreement? :wtf: |
Got contradiction?.....Talk about moving the goal posts....
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
Clipping on a DAW summed mix can be used as a mastering tool? No.
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Yes it can - internal distortion is used (for instance some producers use it to fatten up percussion sounds when they're weak. Seen it done). And he's not talking about the master clipping only, sometimes just tracks but I've also seen it done on the master to brickwall mix BEFORE Mastering.
You keep avoiding all the technically proven points with a load of vague bull. You still haven't answered why -6dbfs is better than -3dbfs (or even just below 0dbfs in an enclosed system) and as I pointed out earlier it's not the same idea at all (a margin of headroom) because there huge difference in perceived loudness between those two which makes a huge difference in the mixing process.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
-3dbfs and -6dbfs are the same idea in this argument, they are both a few dbfs less than 0dbfs, the idea is the same......
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So please go ahead, give us a reason now just to contradict yourself again. So you're saying babzc is right and katz wrong, no...err...actually you're saying they're both right becuase -3dbfs and -6dbs are the same thing..... :haha:
Go on, as before, open up one of your mixes, and mix it to -6dbfs, then do exactly the same thing to -3dbs and just fraction below 0dbfs, then tell me there's not a massive difference between them. And if you're trying to follow these standard then surely your system is calibrated to k20 right? Then you know there's a huge difference in those standards.
Basically you're just saying you're going to mix to -6dbfs becuase your read somewhere a certain mastering Engineer (who you'll probably never get to work with - no offense meant), Rob Babizc likes it that way, whereas I can can tell you (both from real world situational practise and theory) why I don't and the same for Katz's -3dbfs (at least for my situation). Stop arguing and try it, we're not making this up to offend you. |
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| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Got contradiction?.....Talk about moving the goal posts....
Yes it can - internal distortion is used (for instance some producers use it to fatten up percussion sounds when they're weak. Seen it done). And he's not talking about the master clipping only, sometimes just tracks but I've also seen it done on the master to brickwall mix BEFORE Mastering.
You keep avoiding all the technically proven points with a load of vague bull. You still haven't answered why -6dbfs is better than -3dbfs (or even just below 0dbfs in an enclosed system) and as I pointed out earlier it's not the same idea at all (a margin of headroom) because there huge difference in perceived loudness between those two which makes a huge difference in the mixing process.
So please go ahead, give us a reason now just to contradict yourself again. So you're saying babzc is right and katz wrong, no...err...actually you're saying they're both right becuase -3dbfs and -6dbs are the same thing..... :haha:
Go on, as before, open up one of your mixes, and mix it to -6dbfs, then do exactly the same thing to -3dbs and just fraction below 0dbfs, then tell me there's not a massive difference between them. And if you're trying to follow these standard then surely your system is calibrated to k20 right? Then you know there's a huge difference in those standards.
Basically you're just saying you're going to mix to -6dbfs becuase your read somewhere a certain mastering Engineer (who you'll probably never get to work with - no offense meant), Rob Babizc likes it that way, whereas I can can tell you (both from real world situational practise and theory) why I don't and the same for Katz's -3dbfs (at least for my situation). Stop arguing and try it, we're not making this up to offend you. |
What a load of . You want me to repeat everything i've said in this thread again? lol. Only an idiot would clip/distort their mix on a DAW, but ofcourse you moved the goal posts and said something like "ive seen someone clip a percussion." So now percussion = entire mix, therefore clipping is fine? And just to check, due to your reading comprehension problems, you do know that the topic is about mixing on a DAW right...right? So why the hell would anyone clip their mix on a DAW and bring nasty digital distortion into the mix. And I mix to -6dbfs because a majority of ME's ask for headroom, Babicz being one of them. And I already acknowledged the theoreticals, but I choose to mix to -6dbfs because it has practical use towards what a ME wants. So why the hell are you still beating a dead horse when I dont give a about the useless technical limits? Someone like Burial probably doesnt give a either, actually he dont know much about music as he says, but still makes amazing music and mixes. So what are you trying get out of this, besides some e-penis growth? Fine here...your right, im wrong...even though I made a monster this weekend during all this debate, called "Acido Profundo", so if you ever hear a track by that name being played on the dancefloors of the world, I made that in one sitting in the middle of this useless debate. But back to your greatness...let me get my notepad out. :disbelief |
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| DJ RANN |
it, I'll bite..... :D
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
You want me to repeat everything i've said in this thread again?
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No, please, please, don't do that - you make no sense in the first place so we don't need twice the nonsense. As stated before it's all "I think" and "perhaps" which frankly 'aint worth the time you took to write it.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
just to check, due to your reading comprehension problems, you do know that the topic is about mixing on a DAW right...right?
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No, I'm pretty sure the topic is about exporting from Ableton. So it's me with reading comprehension problems? Jesus.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
And I mix to -6dbfs because a majority of ME's ask for headroom, Babicz being one of them. And I already acknowledged the theoreticals, but I choose to mix to -6dbfs because it has practical use towards what a ME wants.
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Er, wrong again genius. ONE mastering engineer wants that when many others actually prefer -3db or 0db. You just saw that email, came rainbows over it and have refused to see any sense since, even though many people on here have said WTF to your reasoning.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
So why the hell are you still beating a dead horse when I dont give a about the useless technical limits?
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I wouldn't be so harsh to a horse by comparing it to you. At least horses can be useful like pull heavy loads or get you from A to B etc.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
Fine here...your right, im wrong...
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Breakthrough moment. First intelligent thing you've posted in this thread.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
even though I made a monster this weekend during all this debate, called "Acido Profundo", so if you ever hear a track by that name being played on the dancefloors of the world, I made that in one sitting in the middle of this useless debate. |
Great can't wait. Do you mind if I don't hold my breath to be rocked by it's "awesomeness"?
I don't have to justify myself. I've worked on several projects in the last couple of years that I can bet you've paid money to go watch or listen to. That's good enough for me.
Look, all this stupidity and these arguments aside, you've been given so many chances by several people to rationally justify your stance on this subject, and the only thing that keeps being posted by you is that's "it's headroom" and "that's what mastering engineers ask for". Well, No - it's what a small minority (I can actually only think of one TBH - Mr. Babizc) seem to PERSONALLY prefer, and certainly not an industry standard or advice that most people should follow. |
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