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The Revolution of 1917, American-Style (pg. 4)
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
ah krypt isn't it wonderful..I see fallacies all over your posts and you see them in mine ;) How can you miss the patterns buddy? Easy credit and low rates in the 90's led to the tech bubble..Greenspan tightened credit and boom, the bubble pops. You acknowledge that we inflated in the early 2000's to prevent deflation after the crash.. The result? A massive housing bubble. The fed kept the easy money spigot on far too long and was too slow to tighten credit...the result when they did tighten? Boom, financial bubble slows and pops with disastrous results.. The fed has now loosened policy again in light of the crash..not only lowering rates as low as they can possibly go but blatantly inflating the money supply and doubling the monetary base in less than 9 months. How can you possibly expect a different result this time krypt? The cluster of errors that will accrue as a result of these policies are going to make the collapse of 08 look like a pleasant memory when we finally face the music. |
You don't have to repeat what you'v said a million times, which I'v continually answered to. Your cause and effect is grossly fallacious. Inflation did not cause the tech bubble or the subprime bubble. Bubbles happen in all economies not because of inflation but because they happen in all economies! They'r unavoidable, yet you believe following this extremist libertarianism is going to be the end of asset bubbles! LOL...
| quote: | | All I can do is say is take a peek at the real world friend. Watch the news occasionally. We are witnessing the culmination of 70 years of Keynesiasm and interventionist policy among central banks around the world. Bernanke's philosophy has been completely dominant in the circles of government and academia for many decades now. |
Trust me, I stay on top of the world/news. The culmination of 70 years of Keynesian economics? Sorry to trump that but America nor Britain has enacted Keynesian monetary policy continuously through all those decades. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
Bernanke's philosophy is based on sound economics and it's no wonder why almost every modern industrialized country follows such a philosophy in regards to economics.
| quote: | | Where has it gotten us?...global stagnation, record government and personal debt..malinvestment across the board, job loss, systemic failure of industry.. |
lol, global stagnation, record government and personal debt..malinvestment across the board, job loss, systemic failure of industry???????? All that happens in EVERY ECONOMY! Nice how you conveniently left out the great boom years and the millions who'v been lifted out of poverty in the last 100 years. Nice going. In fact, for every 10 years, there are about 7 up years and 3 down years, since 1928. Obviously you are utterly wrong.
| quote: | | If you want to follow this path to hell because your textbook advised it, I wish you luck. |
Again, 7 up years and 3 down years every 10 years, since 1928. Millions lifted out of poverty. You do the math. lol at my textbook. At least I have an academic understanding of just how the economy works on a fundamental level. I know being actually educated in economics makes me another crony of the system, but I'm content in the fact that knowledge is power. And if one doesn't even know how the economy works on the most essential level, one shouldn't even be able to comment on it until they do. Sorry I woke up to the absurdities of Ron Paul economics...:) |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
You don't have to repeat what you'v said a million times, which I'v continually answered to. Your cause and effect is grossly fallacious. Inflation did not cause the tech bubble or the subprime bubble. Bubbles happen in all economies not because of inflation but because they happen in all economies! They'r unavoidable, yet you believe following this extremist libertarianism is going to be the end of asset bubbles! LOL... |
Keep calling it extremism if you wish.. This is reality krypt. Yes lenders acted like wild children.. They made irresponsible decisions and stupid loans. They leveraged up to ridiculous levels and made plenty of malinvestment which made the crash worse.. They were certainly on a sugar high last decade.. True True True..but you keep neglecting the kindergarten teacher who left the candy on the table for them.
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Bernanke's philosophy is based on sound economics and it's no wonder why almost every modern industrialized country follows such a philosophy in regards to economics. |
Sound economics that has led every modern industrialized country to the brink of collapse and bankruptcy. K.
| quote: | | lol, global stagnation, record government and personal debt..malinvestment across the board, job loss, systemic failure of industry???????? All that happens in EVERY ECONOMY! Nice how you conveniently left out the great boom years and the millions who'v been lifted out of poverty in the last 100 years. Nice going. In fact, for every 10 years, there are about 7 up years and 3 down years, since 1928. Obviously you are utterly wrong. |
Not nearly to the extent we have seen in recent years.. The consecutive reflation game has made the boom/bust cycle much more painful and the damage much more widespread. The cycle is getting more severe every time because the government is refusing to allow the underlying malinvestment to be purged. We are simply papering over the mess again with the same tools that created it in the first place..debt, cheap money, and credit expansion. This is very unsound economics and it is not a recipe for true prosperity.
| quote: | | Again, 7 up years and 3 down years every 10 years, since 1928. Millions lifted out of poverty. You do the math. lol at my textbook. At least I have an academic understanding of just how the economy works on a fundamental level. I know being actually educated in economics makes me another crony of the system, but I'm content in the fact that knowledge is power. And if one doesn't even know how the economy works on the most essential level, one shouldn't even be able to comment on it until they do. Sorry I woke up to the absurdities of Ron Paul economics...:) |
Krypt, the patterns I've mentioned are so blatantly obvious that I'm stunned you can't see them. And I feel sorry for you if you feel truly educated after 2 semesters of economics. I took micro and macro as well and consider all the little formulas I learned there quite irrelevant today. A few classes can't hurt..but those should be the starting point for your learning. Much more important is that you look out the window occasionally and take in the big picture. Observe what is happening in the real world and start drawing conclusions from history. Take a look at human reaction to government and fed policy over the past 20 years and draw logical inferences from what you see. The successive patterns of boom/bust in recent years can be traced directly back to government/fed policy and this is blindingly obvious.. You seem obsessed with blaming corporations and individuals for stupid behavior..for excessive borrowing and leverage. In short, you are focusing entirely on the SYMPTOMS while neglecting the disease itself. Wake up my man. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Keep calling it extremism if you wish.. This is reality krypt. Yes lenders acted like wild children.. They made irresponsible decisions and stupid loans. They leveraged up to ridiculous levels and made plenty of malinvestment which made the crash worse.. They were certainly on a sugar high last decade.. True True True..but you keep neglecting the kindergarten teacher who left the candy on the table for them. |
What else do you want me to call it? You want no central bank. Absolutely no government regulation of the markets. You'd rather have deflation rather than healthy inflation. And the central banks are responsible for every calamity known to man!
As for you kindergarten teacher analogy. It's just flat out wrong. What actually happened was, there was no teacher to begin with. No rules, no restraint.
| quote: | | Sound economics that has led every modern industrialized country to the brink of collapse and bankruptcy. K. |
What a ridiculous exaggeration...
| quote: | | Not nearly to the extent we have seen in recent years.. The consecutive reflation game has made the boom/bust cycle much more painful and the damage much more widespread. The cycle is getting more severe every time because the government is refusing to allow the underlying malinvestment to be purged. We are simply papering over the mess again with the same tools that created it in the first place..debt, cheap money, and credit expansion. This is very unsound economics and it is not a recipe for true prosperity. |
Not to the extent we have seen in recent years? Ok, show me the numbers. You got data to support that or just throwing it out there to see if I'll bite? Inflation, booms and busts are completely normal functions of the market.
| quote: | | Krypt, the patterns I've mentioned are so blatantly obvious that I'm stunned you can't see them. And I feel sorry for you if you feel truly educated after 2 semesters of economics. I took micro and macro as well and consider all the little formulas I learned there quite irrelevant today. A few classes can't hurt..but those should be the starting point for your learning. Much more important is that you look out the window occasionally and take in the big picture. Observe what is happening in the real world and start drawing conclusions from history. Take a look at human reaction to government and fed policy over the past 20 years and draw logical inferences from what you see. |
What patterns? Booms and busts? They'r normal. Inflationary monetary policy in response to deflation. Also normal. You have nothing new to add except how bad they are and how all our problems are all the central banks fault. Utter nonsense.
Draw logical inferences? See that's your problem. All of your arguments are based on assumptions of this Ron Paul pseudo-economics which isn't based on reality. You actually believe deflation is a good thing. What more can I really say?
| quote: | | The successive patterns of boom/bust in recent years can be traced directly back to government/fed policy and this is blindingly obvious.. You seem obsessed with blaming corporations and individuals for stupid behavior..for excessive borrowing and leverage. In short, you are focusing entirely on the SYMPTOMS while neglecting the disease itself. |
They can be traced huh? Prove it. You got the data? Figures? How about a renowned economist on Bernanke's level? I seem obsessed with blaming corps? Uh huh. I guess the Fed is responsible for fraudulent mortgage loans and over-leveraged portfolios and every other calamity which falls upon us. I should probably blame the Fed for my appendicitis too.
The "disease" isn't central banking, if that's what you'r alluding too.
Please, don't be a trancer-x. |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
What else do you want me to call it? You want no central bank.
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Not necessarily.. I want some restrictions placed on them at minimum. Some mechanism must be in place to prevent endless devaluation based on political whims. This could be done through a balanced budget amendment or some other process.
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Absolutely no government regulation of the markets. |
Wrong.
| quote: | | You'd rather have deflation rather than healthy inflation. |
Inflation isn't healthy, and I'd rather have neither set in stone by policy makers. Inflation is now enshrined into the global economic structure.
| quote: | | And the central banks are responsible for every calamity known to man! |
No, just the wildly excessive consumption and risk taking that occurs when banks have access to large amounts of virtually free money and when people take poorly judged risks with that money in order to try and outpace inflation. ;)
| quote: | | As for you kindergarten teacher analogy. It's just flat out wrong. What actually happened was, there was no teacher to begin with. No rules, no restraint. |
Well the teacher certainly neglected her job on several fronts didn't she? Giving the kids a large dose of sugar AND allowing them to make a mess without disciplining them. She's pretty frakkin incompetent in my view and I certainly wouldn't want to put more kids under her supervision. Better to fire the dumb bitch and find an alternative.
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Not to the extent we have seen in recent years? Ok, show me the numbers. You got data to support that or just throwing it out there to see if I'll bite? Inflation, booms and busts are completely normal functions of the market.
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I don't have numbers for 2009 but I did find this: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...th-quarter.aspx $11+ trillion in household wealth gone in 2008 (doesn't include what corporations or governments lost). I saw a CNBC report a few weeks ago that mentioned the losses in America alone were over $12 trillion now..staggeringly large and worse than any correction since the great depression. These corrections will keep getting larger and larger because we keep blowing the same damn bubble up bigger and bigger.
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What patterns? Booms and busts? They'r normal. Inflationary monetary policy in response to deflation. Also normal. You have nothing new to add except how bad they are and how all our problems are all the central banks fault. Utter nonsense. |
BS krypt..these kinds of busts are NOT normal, not on the scale we are seeing today. You never gave me a proper answer to the cluster of errors argument I made earlier. How can you pretend that mass failure across a variety of independent industries in late 2007 was not influenced by external events? You gave me some mumbo jumbo response about monopolies forming and causing the booms and busts in a free market. Well that didn't happen in the past 2 years did it?? As I recall we have a huge government that enforces strict antitrust laws to prevent monopolies and corporate collusion from taking place. This being the case how the feck do you explain the simultaneous failure of so many industries at the start of this recession? How do you explain the abysmal forecasting and poor judgment made by entrepreneurs in radically different areas of the economy? Why do you refuse to see the tremendous impact the fed can have on these things?
Monetary policy helped blow (then pop) the largest asset bubble in history..and the ramifications filtered down to everything else. The "boom" time of cheap credit the early 2000s sent false price signals through the economy. It clouded visibility and led to huge amounts of overinvestment and malinvestment in real estate and other sectors of the economy. People overbuilt and overleveraged their homes. Businesses did the same with their properties..and when the fed decided to finally choke things off, every sector got smacked down hard and we are still paying the price today. Stupid lenders were a factor..YES, but they were NOT the root cause of this crisis krypt. Look no further than the fed for that. I'm the first to admit that I don't have a proper alternative to the central bank..But when your house is on fire, step one is to recognize it's on fire and step two is to try and limit the damage. You can worry about rebuilding the foundation with stronger materials later. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Not necessarily.. I want some restrictions placed on them at minimum. Some mechanism must be in place to prevent endless devaluation based on political whims. This could be done through a balanced budget amendment or some other process. |
Endless devaluation huh? Like how the dollar has been rising for the past year. LOL....
| quote: | | Inflation isn't healthy, and I'd rather have neither set in stone by policy makers. Inflation is now enshrined into the global economic structure. |
Wrong on all counts. High inflation is not healthy. Low inflation is. Inflation is now enshrined into the global economic structure? LOL! INFLATION IS A NORMAL FUNCTION OF CAPITAL MARKETS. Just the fact that you want deflation really is laughable.
| quote: | | No, just the wildly excessive consumption and risk taking that occurs when banks have access to large amounts of virtually free money and when people take poorly judged risks with that money in order to try and outpace inflation. ;) |
Of which leverage regulations and fraud prevention could have put a stop to. You blame the Fed for EVERYTHING...The Fed didn't tell the banks to make fraudulent loans...
| quote: | | Well the teacher certainly neglected her job on several fronts didn't she? Giving the kids a large dose of sugar AND allowing them to make a mess without disciplining them. She's pretty frakkin incompetent in my view and I certainly wouldn't want to put more kids under her supervision. Better to fire the dumb bitch and find an alternative. |
The Fed doesn't make the regulations, the politicians do. The Fed enforces them. Since the lovely George Bush administration let the market go just as you always wanted, the Fed couldn't enforce regulations which weren't there...
| quote: | | I don't have numbers for 2009 but I did find this: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...th-quarter.aspx $11+ trillion in household wealth gone in 2008 (doesn't include what corporations or governments lost). I saw a CNBC report a few weeks ago that mentioned the losses in America alone were over $12 trillion now..staggeringly large and worse than any correction since the great depression. These corrections will keep getting larger and larger because we keep blowing the same damn bubble up bigger and bigger. |
Really, you have data to support a trend of gradually increasing assets losses by percentage? I mean, since each recession is worse and worse as we go along, according to you...Yea, trillions have been lost, that's what happens in recessions. But your "downward trend" hypothesis is false.
| quote: | | BS krypt..these kinds of busts are NOT normal, not on the scale we are seeing today. You never gave me a proper answer to the cluster of errors argument I made earlier. How can you pretend that mass failure across a variety of independent industries in late 2007 was not influenced by external events? You gave me some mumbo jumbo response about monopolies forming and causing the booms and busts in a free market. Well that didn't happen in the past 2 years did it?? As I recall we have a huge government that enforces strict antitrust laws to prevent monopolies and corporate collusion from taking place. This being the case how the feck do you explain the simultaneous failure of so many industries at the start of this recession? How do you explain the abysmal forecasting and poor judgment made by entrepreneurs in radically different areas of the economy? Why do you refuse to see the tremendous impact the fed can have on these things? |
Yes it is normal. The markets were highly inflated and the market is now returning to equilibrium. That is normal. Sorry, but a world in which there are no bubbles and recessions is not based in reality.
| quote: | | Monetary policy helped blow (then pop) the largest asset bubble in history..and the ramifications filtered down to everything else. The "boom" time of cheap credit the early 2000s sent false price signals through the economy. It clouded visibility and led to huge amounts of overinvestment and malinvestment in real estate and other sectors of the economy. People overbuilt and overleveraged their homes. Businesses did the same with their properties..and when the fed decided to finally choke things off, every sector got smacked down hard and we are still paying the price today. Stupid lenders were a factor..YES, but they were NOT the root cause of this crisis krypt. Look no further than the fed for that. I'm the first to admit that I don't have a proper alternative to the central bank..But when your house is on fire, step one is to recognize it's on fire and step two is to try and limit the damage. You can worry about rebuilding the foundation with stronger materials later. |
As I said several times, we were facing deflation in 2001-2002, and the Fed had to respond. The central bank isn't going to sit back while the economy goes down in flames for some radical libertarian economics. Is it no wonder why no libertarians who represent themselves as libertarian ever reach high office...:) |
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| Capitalizt |
It's been a good game these past few decades hasn't it krypt..but I'm afraid it's coming to an end one way or another. Enjoy yourself over the next few years but prepare yourself as well. I firmly believe this is the last great reflation. China is holding around $4 trillion in US treasuries and they have already made clear that they aren't happy about what the fed is doing. I can't imagine countries like Japan (who hold more paper) are any happier about the blatant printing Bernanke has started.
They could destroy our economy in an instant without firing a single bullet krypt. The global fiat system has left us incredibly vulnerable. It has been propped up by faith and tradition..but the fit is eventually going to hit the shan. Hold tight buddy. ;) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| i dont understand how you can be rather bright yet so completely full of . |
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| Capitalizt |
| I love you too pk. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
It's been a good game these past few decades hasn't it krypt..but I'm afraid it's coming to an end one way or another. Enjoy yourself over the next few years but prepare yourself as well. I firmly believe this is the last great reflation. China is holding around $4 trillion in US treasuries and they have already made clear that they aren't happy about what the fed is doing. I can't imagine countries like Japan (who hold more paper) are any happier about the blatant printing Bernanke has started.
They could destroy our economy in an instant without firing a single bullet krypt. The global fiat system has left us incredibly vulnerable. It has been propped up by faith and tradition..but the fit is eventually going to hit the shan. Hold tight buddy. ;) |
All I'm going to say is I argued RonPaul-onomics out of ignorance. I believe anyone who advocates exactly what he advocates economically...abolition of the central bank and return to gold standard...is also arguing out of ignorance of economics and how our system really works. Don't get me wrong, I like his social and political ideas, but the man really should stay the away from economics because he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I don't know one person who isn't for sound fiscal and monetary policy so this really isn't about that. I just don't like hearing people propose that we have no monetary policy at all...
And Cap, I'm well cushioned against inflation. In fact, more than 50% of my portfolio is in actual gold and silver which I have locked up somewhere secret. But all my new money deposits are going towards equities so that gold/silver allocation is being sharply curtailed. Not selling though. |
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| gallantrybot |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
All I'm going to say is I argued RonPaul-onomics out of ignorance. I believe anyone who advocates exactly what he advocates economically...abolition of the central bank and return to gold standard...is also arguing out of ignorance of economics and how our system really works. Don't get me wrong, I like his social and political ideas, but the man really should stay the away from economics because he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I don't know one person who isn't for sound fiscal and monetary policy so this really isn't about that. I just don't like hearing people propose that we have no monetary policy at all...
And Cap, I'm well cushioned against inflation. In fact, more than 50% of my portfolio is in actual gold and silver which I have locked up somewhere secret. But all my new money deposits are going towards equities so that gold/silver allocation is being sharply curtailed. Not selling though. |
Our Fabian Socialist system has failed, man. It's time to move on and I don't mean by accepting the global currency that the central planners in the UN, Russia and China are working on for us.
It's time to allow supply and demand to take it's course and let free market Capitalism burn away the underbrush that's been piled up over the course of the artificially fixed interest rate credit bubble. Sure, it's going to be tough for a little while but it sure does beat having our country become under the control of the IMF and World Bank. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by gallantrybot
Our Fabian Socialist system has failed, man. It's time to move on and I don't mean by accepting the global currency that the central planners in the UN, Russia and China are working on for us. |
What economic system hasn't failed? And if you didn't already know, we already have a global currency. It's called the US dollar.
| quote: | | It's time to allow supply and demand to take it's course and let free market Capitalism burn away the underbrush that's been piled up over the course of the artificially fixed interest rate credit bubble. Sure, it's going to be tough for a little while but it sure does beat having our country become under the control of the IMF and World Bank. |
Supply and demand is taking its course...Have you checked the indexes lately? They'r way off their all-time highs.... |
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| gallantrybot |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
It's been a good game these past few decades hasn't it krypt..but I'm afraid it's coming to an end one way or another. Enjoy yourself over the next few years but prepare yourself as well. I firmly believe this is the last great reflation. China is holding around $4 trillion in US treasuries and they have already made clear that they aren't happy about what the fed is doing. I can't imagine countries like Japan (who hold more paper) are any happier about the blatant printing Bernanke has started.
They could destroy our economy in an instant without firing a single bullet krypt. The global fiat system has left us incredibly vulnerable. It has been propped up by faith and tradition..but the fit is eventually going to hit the shan. Hold tight buddy. ;) |
Our fiat system was designed by a Fabian Socialist. What did people expect, that the people who have been planning to destroy our Republic in order to achieve a global government were going to ensure us some kind of long term prosperity? Of course not. The seeds of our destruction were sewn into the system itself. |
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