Originally posted by Capo di tutti
Watch BBC Horizon's "is alcohol more dangerous than ecstasy"
this documentary was a joke, the rankings made no sense whatsoever
Miss. S
As much as I'm in favour of this idea...
With all these drugs legalized wouldn't we all be dead in 5 years?
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by Miss. S
As much as I'm in favour of this idea...
With all these drugs legalized wouldn't we all be dead in 5 years?
:rolleyes:
DigiNut
As much as I am in favour of legalization (NOT "decriminalization", which does virtually nothing to remove the black market), there's an important point which cynics often seem to miss:
Legalization of drugs would be a logistical nightmare. Our society is entrenched so deeply in criminalization, it would take an exceptionally talented team of experts on law, health, media, urban planning, business, psychology, chemistry, and a host of other disciplines, working long hours, in order to pull it off without a major disaster.
Lots of "Dangerous Things" are legal but controlled, and now have books full of regulations and case precedents to cover just about every edge case. For all the 50 years or so we've spent hunting down stoners, we should have been spending that time developing a framework for minimizing the harm of typical drugs on individuals and society. We're literally decades behind, and it takes a long time to come up with all of the answers. For example, here are just a few of the tough questions associated with legalization (I know nobody's going to read this, but whatever):
Are there age restrictions? How are they enforced, and who is held responsible if minors are found to be high or in possession? Is it OK for minors if it's under the supervision of parents?
What are the rules related to driving and other activities requiring high awareness and reflexes? What are the specific legal limits for drug-related "intoxication", how can they be measured accurately, and what are the penalties? How will they be enforced - for example, will RIDE programs be extended with drug tests? For which drugs?
What happens to the people in prison for major charges? Do we let them out, knowing that many of them are violent criminals who would have ended up in prison anyway? If not, what about petty charges? Where do we draw the line, and how would we avoid millions of lawsuits from the crime syndicates complaining that the decision was unfair?
Are there rules on public use, like there are for public drunkenness or indoor smoking? How outrageous does somebody's behaviour have to be in order to qualify as intoxicated?
What about marketing - can companies advertise to anyone, at any time, through any medium? Can they sponsor public events? Corporate events?
Do they have to broadcast warnings and plaster them all over the packaging? If so, what warnings? What if we don't really know all the long-term side-effects yet?
Can bars sell drugs? Restaurants and cafés? Supermarkets or pharmacies? Can you get into trouble for serving weed cookies, ecstasy- or meth-laced drinks, or other such concoctions without telling the recipient what's in it?
Does every single drug interaction need to be documented? What happens if somebody dies because they tried some crazy cocktail that nobody had even thought of? How is anybody supposed to keep track of all of it?
On that note, what happens if somebody dies from a documented improper use (say, combining MDMA with Viagra, or going crazy with water and ending up with hyponatremia, or taking way too high a dose)? Can the families sue?
And speaking of dosages, how is the recommended dose determined, and are they allowed to be sold at other dosages?
Will there be price controls? Taxes? Both? What do we do when we hear the inevitable allegations of price gouging, of corporations or the government taking unfair advantages of addicts?
The list goes on and on and on, and if we left just one of them unanswered it could turn into a serious problem.
Mind you, none of this is meant to suggest that we shouldn't be putting our resources into answering those questions; it's a far better use of taxpayer money than all of the police work and prison space currently dedicated to criminalization... but obviously we can't just suddenly stop enforcing current laws without any kind of plan.
So even if you're 100% in favour of complete legalization as I am, try to keep in mind just how complicated the issue is before engaging in excessive cynicism. When the anti-drug nuts say that it would be total chaos if we legalized pot or any other drug tomorrow, they are actually sort of right; it's our job to prove to them that we've worked through all of the nitty gritty and can reasonably guarantee that people aren't going to die.
chinamon
quote:
Originally posted by Miss. S
As much as I'm in favour of this idea...
With all these drugs legalized wouldn't we all be dead in 5 years?
only if people are irresponsible sketchbags.
jsibilin
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
For example, here are just a few of the tough questions associated with legalization (I know nobody's going to read this, but whatever):
funny guy:crazy:
you bring up a lot of good points but I think everyone has to realize everything in moderatio is key. Yet the ones that don't see that end up paying the price... whateves... nobody is reading this ;)
Miss. S
quote:
Originally posted by chinamon
only if people are irresponsible sketchbags.
which is like 75% of people....
lol
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by Miss. S
which is like 75% of people....
lol
I would say the numbers are probably reversed.
chinamon
quote:
Originally posted by Miss. S
which is like 75% of people....
lol
not really. i think there are more responsible users than irresponsible ones.
Sly_Guy
quote:
Originally posted by chinamon
thats because the general population is brainwashed about the war on drugs.
This is true. Com'on people, if anything this online community can appreciate the affect of the advertising of the 'war on drugs'.
How many people do you know that don't party, that the second you tell them about an e-trip will negatively judge or at the very least feel uncomfortable listening to? But to us, seeing these things [and maybe experiencing them first hand] gives us a perspective that allows us to see drugs for what they are. Sometimes they're fun, sometimes they're dangerous, sometimes they're sketchy, but if we handle ourselves well and don't do anything too stupid, they can be relatively safe.
To those other people, the war on drugs makes all they see about controlled substances is this:
DeleteFromUsers
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Are there age restrictions? How are they enforced, and who is held responsible if minors are found to be high or in possession? Is it OK for minors if it's under the supervision of parents?
What are the rules related to driving and other activities requiring high awareness and reflexes? What are the specific legal limits for drug-related "intoxication", how can they be measured accurately, and what are the penalties? How will they be enforced - for example, will RIDE programs be extended with drug tests? For which drugs?
What happens to the people in prison for major charges? Do we let them out, knowing that many of them are violent criminals who would have ended up in prison anyway? If not, what about petty charges? Where do we draw the line, and how would we avoid millions of lawsuits from the crime syndicates complaining that the decision was unfair?
Are there rules on public use, like there are for public drunkenness or indoor smoking? How outrageous does somebody's behaviour have to be in order to qualify as intoxicated?
What about marketing - can companies advertise to anyone, at any time, through any medium? Can they sponsor public events? Corporate events?
Do they have to broadcast warnings and plaster them all over the packaging? If so, what warnings? What if we don't really know all the long-term side-effects yet?
Can bars sell drugs? Restaurants and cafés? Supermarkets or pharmacies? Can you get into trouble for serving weed cookies, ecstasy- or meth-laced drinks, or other such concoctions without telling the recipient what's in it?
Does every single drug interaction need to be documented? What happens if somebody dies because they tried some crazy cocktail that nobody had even thought of? How is anybody supposed to keep track of all of it?
On that note, what happens if somebody dies from a documented improper use (say, combining MDMA with Viagra, or going crazy with water and ending up with hyponatremia, or taking way too high a dose)? Can the families sue?
And speaking of dosages, how is the recommended dose determined, and are they allowed to be sold at other dosages?
Will there be price controls? Taxes? Both? What do we do when we hear the inevitable allegations of price gouging, of corporations or the government taking unfair advantages of addicts?
The list goes on and on and on, and if we left just one of them unanswered it could turn into a serious problem.
Alcohol and tobacco are both very dangerous and heavily regulated. Half of your points are answered by how we deal with the those substances currently. Perhaps it sounds like an oversimplification but I have yet to read any argument that effectively differentiates the addictiveness and physical/societal dangers of alcohol and tobacco versus other harder substances.
As far as testings short- and long-term effects and product production, pharmaceutical companies are pretty darn good at this type of thing - it's pretty much what they do. Admittedly long-term testing (beyond info that is currently available) would be a problem. As I understand, after criminalization the testing of many drugs virtually ceased. However using currently available studies on "addicts" and the commissioning of studies given the intent to legalize, I'm very confident we could make educated recommendations and predictions to potential end users (society) about the effects of these substances.
Ultimately, yes - logistical nightmare. But then, anything in government is a logistical nightmare - it's pretty much what they do.
evil_cookie
quote:
Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers
Alcohol and tobacco are both very dangerous and heavily regulated. Half of your points are answered by how we deal with the those substances currently. Perhaps it sounds like an oversimplification but I have yet to read any argument that effectively differentiates the addictiveness and physical/societal dangers of alcohol and tobacco versus other harder substances.
My thoughts exactly, and I don't think you're oversimplifying. If anything, Digi's points are an over-exaggeration of the implementation process--obviously change won't come overnight, but it's hardly a daunting task. In fact, the only thing making this a "logistical nightmare" is the governments resistance, and unwillingness in creating the necessary conditions for change to occur. Otherwise the process--granted it was permitted to start--is not nearly as difficult as some might suggest it to be.
