|
Who Actually Produces Dance Music/Who Claims To Produce But Doesn't (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| DJ Eco |
We're the starving artists who keep it real to the scene and the music... For many reasons and in many ways, I'd like to keep it that way...
If I were asked to be a ghostwriter, I actually would... It's a steady income, and to be honest, the life of "the famous DJ" doesn't appeal to me at all. It's a really lonely meaningless life when you look at it... I think people who write for PvD or Tiesto and the other DJs, they have the same point of view as I do and probably thought a lot about this before they signed the big contract... |
|
|
| BiG MiKE |
| quote: | Originally posted by yankeeBaby
wtf!! totally random, off-topic comment. :conf: :haha:
ps: ok thread wont end, but I put my 2 cents in, and there really isnt anymore to say TBH! :) |
I saw your signature. Oh and I meant to push enter after the smiley face to indicate it was an off-topic comment :) |
|
|
| Jason Jollins |
My apologies in writing so much in this thread but I just have so much to say in regards to this topic, much more than I am even writing here :) The good thing for me is that I have already written a lot of this in a past interview so the copy and paste method is making this long post easy.
If you look at Rock, Hip Hop, Pop, Country, etc..., many of your favorite artists use producers and engineers to make the music that you love so much. Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake & Madonna for example use Engineers to make there tracks as well as writers to write (or to at least help write) there lyrics. This is how the music industry works.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion amongst Electronic Dance Music fans worldwide who think that dj'ing and production is one in the same. And there is a very big difference between a person who produces music and one who actually dj's.
It's almost impossible (especially in today's age) to break through as a dj alone. Unless one of the top dj's take you under there wing and bring you up, the only real option to become globally known is through producing (making) great tracks. In turn, what you have are the worlds best producers touring the world as dj's, while the worlds best dj's are playing in there bedroom or in there local pub.
Of course in some cases an artist comes along who is a great Dj as well as a great producer, or is at least a great dj with a great production partner / engineer. Either way, it's much easier and much more accessible for someone to listen to a 7 minute track than it is for someone to listen to an 80 minute dj mix from a dj they never heard of before.
Using Deadmau5 as an example. He made great tracks and these tracks were played by many of the worlds most popular dj's spanning many different sub-genre's of EDM. Music fans saw Deadmau5's productions being tracklisted by there favorite DJ's and in turn he became very popular.
If Deadmau5 was not a producer and if he was a DJ, he could have made thousands of DJ Mixes and no one would have known his name. Afterall, a DJ mix is 60 - 80 minutes long, if you are going to download a DJ mix, chances are that you will download a DJ mix from one of your favorite DJ's rather than to download a DJ mix from a DJ you have never heard of before.
If you look at many of the top dj's in the world, you will see that they "initially" became known through there production work, not because they were great dj's. Name your favorite DJ, I'll tell you what track (s) made him / her famous.
With that said, before Ableton live came out, producers would get known through there productions but a lot of them would remain in the studio producing music rather than touring the world as a dj. The reason for this was because they were professional producers and aside from just playing tracks, they didn't have the experience or skills to be a professional DJ.
Now with programs like Ableton live, you see a lot of great producers who have never toured as dj's before now touring. The reason for this is because Ableton allows artists to put together a pre-programmed set (if they choose to). Because of this, you have "some" producers showing up to there shows with a laptop and a preprogrammed set where they just press the play button in ableton and pretend that they are actually doing something. And this is not a diss on Ableton DJ's because there are some who do great things with the program (DJ Sasha for example).
Now speaking as a clubber and a fan of the art of DJ'ing: I personally find it very discouraging when an artist shows up to a show and is jumping around pretending they are doing something when they are in fact just playing a pre-mixed set in ableton live. Everyone is being cheated in my opinion. It's equivalent to a singer who lip-syncs at a concert.
I feel that the art of dj'ing is dying. The reason for this is because there is no real way to compare dj's on a global scale.
In sports, you can clearly see who is the best in a particular sport. There is no denying that Tiger Woods is presently one of the best Golfers. Michael Jordan was without a doubt one of the best basketball players of his time. You could clearly see this by watching any basketball game for which he played.
Unfortunately, there is no real way to compare dj's. You can pick your favorite dj among the dj's that are touring to your city, but those are generally the same dj's that are touring every city in the world, and have been doing so for years. This is the reason why the same DJ's are constantly listed in the DJ Mag Top 100 year after year, because these are the only DJ's getting global exposure and the voting system is based on popularity and name recognition.
Many of the top dj's that are touring have in one way or another been a huge inspiration to me. They without a doubt deserve to be where they are and deserve the recognition that they have. Most of them are great dj's and they in one way or another helped to create, build, and contribute to the scene that we all have and love today.
But there are also so many great dj's in the world that are completely unknown, and unfortunately will never be known. And the reason why they will never be known is because they either aren't connected to the right people, they didn't make a big impact through dj'ing when being a great dj is all that was needed to become known, or they simply don't produce music.
To mention Deadmau5 again (who I can only assume will respond to what I am saying being that he does post here often), he is a perfect example of a great Producer who many EDM fans confuse with being a great DJ. After producing some great tracks, he was immediately voted into the 11th spot in last years DJ Mag top 100 DJ's list.
In a recent but not so recent interview Deadmau5 said the following:
“It puts me to ing sleep to be quite honest, I don’t really see the technical merit in playing two songs at the same speed together and it bores me to ing tears and hopefully with all due respect to the dj type that will ing go the way of the dinosaur id like them to dis-a-ing-pear. To say you become this massive up on a podium performer by playing other peoples productions at the same speed as someone else’s productions and fading between the two of them, I don’t get it.”
Case in point, the reason why Deadmau5 "doesn't get it" is because he is a producer and he does not understand the art of DJ'ing. DJ'ing is a very intricate skill and form of art, a great DJ certainly does not "just play tracks".
And I am not picking on Deadmau5 here because he is a great producer and he deserves a lot of respect for his accomplishments. However, he does make a perfect example for the DJ vs. Producer argument.
So to sum this all up...
The art of DJ'ing and the art of music Production are two entirely different things.
Many DJ's use engineers to help them produce tracks, this not only happens in EDM, but it happens in many other forms of music as well.
I do not see a problem with a DJ using an engineer to make tracks.
I do however see a problem with a Producer performing as a DJ and trying to push the EDM scene if they do not know how to compose a professional DJ set. By doing so they are only being selfish and they are hurting the art of this music as a whole on a global level.
There is absolutely no way to have a DJ rating system based on talent, it is all based on popularity, and popularity is based on which dj's have the most exposure on a global level.
- |
|
|
| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jason Jollins
I personally find it very discouraging when an artist shows up to a show and is jumping around pretending they are doing something when they are in fact just playing a pre-mixed set in ableton live. Everyone is being cheated in my opinion. It's equivalent to a singer who lip-syncs at a concert. |
I think a lot of people on this board and a lot of boards would themselves if they knew how many "DJ's" they pay good money to see actually do this... It's an epidemic, you guys would be surprised how widespread it is...
| quote: | Originally posted by Jason Jollins
I do not see a problem with a DJ using an engineer to make tracks. I do however see a problem with a Producer performing as a DJ and trying to push the EDM scene if they do not know how to compose a professional DJ set. |
I agree with 99% of your post except for this... I see them as the same thing to be honest, just inverted... I'm perfectly fine with someone like Eddie Halliwell who pushes his DJing forward, sets a bar for people to follow, and doesn't feel the need to brand productions under his name: that's all it is is branding. In either case, the producer falsely brands himself as a DJ, or the DJ falsely brands himself as a producer...
It's like Bob Villa selling his hardware on TV channels, with no knowledge of how to put up a drywall or use plaster. I find it comparable to Milli Vanilli who, yes, had stage presence and knew how to be "performers", but everyone was shocked when they found out it wasn't them. Obviously they're not the same thing, but there's some similarities... |
|
|
| BradMiller |
I agree with you on everything Jason except for the Ableton stuff of course..
(insert rant here)
I always remember how when I switched from vinyl to CDs people were telling me I wasn't a real DJ anymore... these days it's just the same thing all over again. In my experience mixing on Ableton has been a huge step forward that has been anything but easy. It literally allows you to have complete control over your music, to the point that you're no longer mixing songs - you're mixing individual pieces of songs to create something else entirely. To me it is much more exciting, much more artistic, and much more challenging than mixing on CDs. Beatmatching is something that every DJ should know how to do, but the moment I started using Ableton I realized that it was holding me back from being more creative with the music. Done correctly, you should be changing the key of your song on the fly, looping an acapella to throw on top, and putting a delay on top of Ame's - Rej which is now jacked up to 136 with a badass drum loop on the bottom - all in the next 60 seconds before the next track comes in.
Yes there are lazy DJs out there who are giving Ableton users a bad name but please don't make that assumption for all of us. Paul van Dyk, Chris Liebing, and Richie Hawtin are perfect examples of DJs who do things that could never be done on CDs. I don't claim to have their talent, but I can honestly say that I've done many things in my sets that would never be possible on CDJs. After seeing what's possible, there's not a single DJ I've taught how to use Ableton properly that has turned back to CDs - not a single one.
In the end people only remember one thing about the DJ - they remember the music.
Sorry about the rant Jason, I'm just a little touchy about having to defend it every 5 min... Got nothing but respect for ya! :) |
|
|
| Jason Jollins |
| quote: | Originally posted by BradMiller
I agree with you on everything Jason except for the Ableton stuff of course..
(insert rant here)
I always remember how when I switched from vinyl to CDs people were telling me I wasn't a real DJ anymore... these days it's just the same thing all over again. In my experience mixing on Ableton has been a huge step forward that has been anything but easy. It literally allows you to have complete control over your music, to the point that you're no longer mixing songs - you're mixing individual pieces of songs to create something else entirely. To me it is much more exciting, much more artistic, and much more challenging than mixing on CDs. Beatmatching is something that every DJ should know how to do, but the moment I started using Ableton I realized that it was holding me back from being more creative with the music. Done correctly, you should be changing the key of your song on the fly, looping an acapella to throw on top, and putting a delay on top of Ame's - Rej which is now jacked up to 136 with a badass drum loop on the bottom - all in the next 60 seconds before the next track comes in.
Yes there are lazy DJs out there who are giving Ableton users a bad name but please don't make that assumption for all of us. Paul van Dyk, Chris Liebing, and Richie Hawtin are perfect examples of DJs who do things that could never be done on CDs. I don't claim to have their talent, but I can honestly say that I've done many things in my sets that would never be possible on CDJs. After seeing what's possible, there's not a single DJ I've taught how to use Ableton properly that has turned back to CDs - not a single one.
In the end people only remember one thing about the DJ - they remember the music.
Sorry about the rant Jason, I'm just a little touchy about having to defend it every 5 min... Got nothing but respect for ya! :) |
I agree with you Brad, there are some DJ's out there who do amazing things with Ableton, I said that in my rant :)
- |
|
|
| jurel |
Who's going to stop going to see their beloved PVD, or any producer if he/she hired 'ghost' anything?
Take scenario A, assuming they're already in central park for PVD for example:
TA 1: HEY, did you know that PVD uses ghost producers and engineers to make his tracks???????
TA 2: OMG, you hear that coming in?? ITS FOR AN ANGEL I LOVE THIS TRACK!! WOOO WOOO *sings melody with the rest of the 5000 people*
Take Scenario B, assuming they're at Pacha for ATB, where TA 1 meets a hot new girl, Clubber B, and they start having a conversation despite the sardine-like atmosphere:
*Ecstacy comes on*
TA 1: OMG GREAT TRACK!
Clubber B: YUP, I LOVE THIS !
TA 1: HEY DID YOU KNOW ATB DOESNT FULLY PRODUCE HIS OWN TRACKS??
Clubber B: WHAT?? ITS LOUD AND PEOPLE ARE SINGING
TA 1: DID YOU KNOW ATB USES GHOST PRODUCERS TO MAKE TRACKS LIKE THIS?? I HAVE SOURCES.
Clubber B: UM....OK! THATS COOL..............
Clubber B, despite the sardine atmosphere, makes a clean getaway after the track is over.
So, where am I going with this?
It's completely pointless and won't affect .. and yes its a discussion board, but damn.. it's more like a bitching board from someone who didn't have his tracks get the attention.
/end
P.S. F this, I'm cancelling my Electric Zoo tickets because some of those guys are on that list! |
|
|
| BradMiller |
I know, it's just that Ableton in particular is often pointed at as the sole tool of the cheating DJ. Truth is, cheating DJs have been here a long time before Ableton. How many DJs have you seen looking at a pre-made tracklist (EDIT: this does not imply that having a printed out piece of paper for organizing tracks is wrong, I mean one used for planning out a set from start to finish) on top of their CD case? I've personally seen some CD DJs pop in a pre-made mix CD and just pretend to mix. These guys are just lazy DJs, and it's bad form no matter how they do it. I am tired of people constantly pointing the finger at Ableton because people now automatically associate it with cheating. I can't tell you how many times I show DJs what I'm doing with it and the first thing they say is "You mean you can mix any song you want? You don't have to pre-plan your sets?" ...YES!!!!! THAT'S THE POINT OF BEING A DJ!!! ...and yet like clockwork it will happen every single gig because all they read about on the forums are the 1% of DJs that are abusing it...
I would also disagree with the notion that producers are suddenly DJing because Ableton has made it easier for them to do so. I think they've realized that there's more money to be made behind the decks than in the studio and frankly, with the work they put in to make these tracks they deserve it. With any musician the money to be made is out on the road - an album is merely a selling point to get gigs. The dance industry was behind in this for a long time because it was so young, but as it's matured and has become more popular it has followed the same pattern as other genres. I think the reason you see producers using Ableton is because they're a lot more familiar with the technology. Things like MIDI, AUX outputs, Buses, Audio Interfaces, and all the fun things that made me pull my hair out when I started using it.
Again, not trying to be 'that guy' on the forums, and not trying to direct anything at anyone in particular - just trying to break stereotypes is all.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jason Jollins
With that said, before Ableton live came out, producers would get known through there productions but a lot of them would remain in the studio producing music rather than touring the world as a dj. The reason for this was because they were professional producers and aside from just playing tracks, they didn't have the experience or skills to be a professional DJ.
Now with programs like Ableton live, you see a lot of great producers who have never toured as dj's before now touring. The reason for this is because Ableton allows artists to put together a pre-programmed set (if they choose to). Because of this, you have "some" producers showing up to there shows with a laptop and a preprogrammed set where they just press the play button in ableton and pretend that they are actually doing something. And this is not a diss on Ableton DJ's because there are some who do great things with the program (DJ Sasha for example).
Now speaking as a clubber and a fan of the art of DJ'ing: I personally find it very discouraging when an artist shows up to a show and is jumping around pretending they are doing something when they are in fact just playing a pre-mixed set in ableton live. Everyone is being cheated in my opinion. It's equivalent to a singer who lip-syncs at a concert.
- |
|
|
|
| infectedskills |
| i agree with mike.. i dj but i dont produce i wanna start to produce but i want someone to help me try to produce a desent first track so i can work on it.. but there are fakers out there who take other peoples tracks and say that they produced it when they really didnt cause its a dj /producer who has a sick rep in the scene for producing sick tracks.... |
|
|
| Jason Jollins |
| quote: | Originally posted by BradMiller
I know, it's just that Ableton in particular is often pointed at as the sole tool of the cheating DJ. Truth is, cheating DJs have been here a long time before Ableton. How many DJs have you seen looking at a pre-made tracklist on top of their CD case? I've personally seen some CD DJs pop in a pre-made mix CD and just pretend to mix. These guys are just lazy DJs, and it's bad form no matter how they do it. I am tired of people constantly pointing the finger at Ableton because people now automatically associate it with cheating.
I would also disagree with the notion that producers are suddenly DJing because Ableton has made it easier for them to do so. I think they've realized that there's more money to be made behind the decks than in the studio and frankly, with the work they put in to make these tracks they deserve it. |
Brad I said that Ableton easily allows artists to put together a pre-programmed set (if they choose to) and that you have "some" producers showing up to there shows with a laptop and a pre-programmed set. I also said that there are some artists who do great things with the program (DJ Sasha for example).
I am not dissing Ableton, it is a great program, but time and time again I have (and many people on this forum have as it's been talked about several times) seen artists showing up to gigs here in NYC playing a pre-programed set in Ableton live, pretending to actually be doing something.
And it is definitely Ableton that has allowed Producers to tour as DJ's. Keep in mind that the digital era only started about 4 years ago. The globetrotting DJ has been going strong since the mid 90's and DJ's were using Vinyl up until the digital era. Try faking a dj set with Vinyl...
And as far as a DJ putting in a cd containing a dj set and pretending to be dj'ing, I have personally never seen that happen and I can't imagine someone actually doing such a thing (but yeah, it probably has happened at least one time somewhere).
As far as pre-made tracklists go, my cd book is filled with tracklists from practice sessions and notes about how particular tracks are structured. I don't think that is cheating, I think it's good organization. With vinyl you could literally look at the record and see how the track is organized, unfortunately with cd's you do not have that luxury.
- |
|
|
| MeLLyMeL |
anyone who produces for other cunts is the one who should be 100% fully to blame for this.
I know S&T are amazing and they were promised things they never recieved.. but I am damn glad they made a name for themselves without any help from Alex wanker MORPH.
I hear Activa produces for a lot of ppl and it sure does sound like him.. Either way - even if he is getting $$ for it... he is only hurting it for the fans who actually do care about the music.
Don't play yourself as a producer if you don't fuking produce. If u can't get gigs because of this then maybe you should look into another career. |
|
|
| MeLLyMeL |
and how the fuk is a pre made tracklist cheating? lol. Does the pre made tracklist beat match for you??
you gotta have some idea as to what to play and if you had any clue - then maybe you would know mixing songs in the same key is a bit easier then not.
That's not fuking cheating. Cheating is a pre made cd (a la Peter Hook) or pre recorded set. w/e |
|
|
|
|
