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Hussein Pointed to Iranian Threat (pg. 2)
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Iran is one of the most socialized countries in the world. That is not fascism! LOL... |
Stop defending countries like Iran where it's now even a crime to log onto "Western" websites like Tranceaddict. The foreign media has been kicked out. The Iranian government is so messed up they even claim the death of Neda was either fake, or was caused by Mousavi supporters.
One of the most socialized countries in the world, please. You make it sound like it's Switzerland. THose in power have ed up so bad that not only is unemployment high, but they havent even produced one new oil refinery in the past 30 years. Iran has one of the largest oil reserves in the world yet it has to IMPORT oil b/c it wastes its money on Hamas and Hezbollah rather than on progress towards its own people. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Stop defending countries like Iran where it's now even a crime to log onto "Western" websites like Tranceaddict. The foreign media has been kicked out. The Iranian government is so messed up they even claim the death of Neda was either fake, or was caused by Mousavi supporters.
One of the most socialized countries in the world, please. You make it sound like it's Switzerland. THose in power have ed up so bad that not only is unemployment high, but they havent even produced one new oil refinery in the past 30 years. Iran has one of the largest oil reserves in the world yet it has to IMPORT oil b/c it wastes its money on Hamas and Hezbollah rather than on progress towards its own people. |
Ouch! Good rebuttal. |
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| DJ Damerchi |
look, Chrles, we are not arguing on behalf of the Iranian regime by any means, the semantics of terms that get thrown around is the issue at hand.
Socialism does not equate with success, so I don't know where you got off with that Switzerland comparison. "You make it sound like Venezuela" makes more sense if you want to use a more extreme example of socialism to compare Iran to, and this statement obviously does not do Iran any good, since Venezuela is far from paradise. For example, The pan Arab socialists, as the name implies, are socialists. That doesn't say anything about their quality of life, unemployment rates, longevity,etc.
Social democratic practices within Europe are an entirely different kind of socialism, and much more sustainable within that context. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Stop defending countries like Iran where it's now even a crime to log onto "Western" websites like Tranceaddict. The foreign media has been kicked out. The Iranian government is so messed up they even claim the death of Neda was either fake, or was caused by Mousavi supporters.
One of the most socialized countries in the world, please. You make it sound like it's Switzerland. THose in power have ed up so bad that not only is unemployment high, but they havent even produced one new oil refinery in the past 30 years. Iran has one of the largest oil reserves in the world yet it has to IMPORT oil b/c it wastes its money on Hamas and Hezbollah rather than on progress towards its own people. |
Stop twisting my words to mean something completely different from what I'm saying. I'm not defending Iran. In fact, I want the people of Iran to reform their own government...SURPRISE! Let's get back to the point. The term Islamofascism is an oxymoron, and Iran is an example of that, for all the conservatives who love labeling Iran a fascist state. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Great, so let's ignore the fact that Iraq was under severe sanctions with much of the free world, not just the US, prior to 2003. Let's ignore what Saddam did to his own people, and to Kuwait. Let's ignore his behavior after 9/11, regardless of whether he had anything to do with that or not. Clearly Sadam should have been taken out either by his own people or by some foreign government ages ago. |
Who cares what sanctions Iraq was under. That doesn't justify invading the country when it poses no existential threat to the USA, or it's neighbors. North Korea is also under sanctions, perhaps we should also invade them...oh, and they have nukes, how about that?
| quote: | You keep ignoring the fact that MOST of the deaths occuring in Iraq are between Iraqis killing other Iraqis. Had the US not been there does not mean that this could have been prevented.
Did you even follow the news at all a couple of years ago with the way some Iraqis burned other Irauis alive, out in public? And in relatiation other Iraqis were hanged? What about the suicide bombings? |
CHRles, what do you expect when law and order breaks down? Huh? The coalition authority DISBANDED THE MILITARY AND POLICE FORCE. What the do you expect is going to happen?
| quote: | | So please, don't quote me the Nuremberg trials. I'm well aware of those trials, and know at least as much as you do about World War II. |
I will quote you the Nuremburg Trials, because here you are trying to justify a war of aggression. It isn't working...
| quote: | | Bush made a lot of mistakes with regards to the way he handled the situation in Iraq, and the way he handled the economy. It's still a long way off from being a Nazi criminal. |
That's an understatement. And stop taking my comments as calling Bush, Hitler, or a Nazi criminal.
| quote: | The Nazis, and the Soviets for that matter, didnt just invade Poland, they committed atrocious acts against humanity there. It wasn't an inner struggle among Poles that killed people, and it wasnt like Poland wasnt cooperating with the West prior to the invasion.
From there on the story gets more and more twisted and cruel, ultimately resulting in the death of 40 million people around the world. Poland was just the first casualty. |
Just because Bush's actions were not on the level of the Nazis or Stalin does not excuse what happened.
| quote: | | How many people in Iraq have died in the past 6 years? How many Iraqis died previously under Sadam? How many people were affected by Sadam's actions in neighboring countries during his reign? |
Who cares. That does not excuse an invasion of the country, which led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, and millions of refugees. Yea, Saddam was bad, so ing what? That doesn't excuse us bombing the out them and causing mass exodus of intellectuals and refugees.
| quote: | | There are several "leaders" in Africa that the pathetic international court in Hague hasn't gotten around to dealing with. Yet you want them to waste their time on the former Bush administration???? |
I have an even better idea. How about the Justice Department file charges against former Bush admin officials for violating the law. That'd be a good start. For violating our torture statutes, and of course, launching a war of aggression. The ICU doesnt have to do it, we can ourselves... |
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| CHRles |
| Alright, if I've misinterpreted what you said than I'll own up and apologize. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Alright, if I've misinterpreted what you said than I'll own up and apologize. |
I commend you for that. Sorry if I came out too strong. I guess I'm just very opinionated.
| quote: | | One of the most socialized countries in the world, please. You make it sound like it's Switzerland. THose in power have ed up so bad that not only is unemployment high, but they havent even produced one new oil refinery in the past 30 years. Iran has one of the largest oil reserves in the world yet it has to IMPORT oil b/c it wastes its money on Hamas and Hezbollah rather than on progress towards its own people. |
CHRles, Iran is HEAVILY socialized. 60% of Iran's economy is centrally planned by the state. In a fascist state, the economy is essentially corporatist, in which state and business are practically one in the same. So to say Islamo-fascism, is wrong. Do you get it now? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
"fascist" has a shock value attached to it, so networks like Fox often abuse the out of this term and mislead the public. |
in stupidest thing i ever heard here since, well...read my sig.
let me ask you something, are the Taliban fascist? is Al Queera a fascist organization? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
CHRles, Iran is HEAVILY socialized. 60% of Iran's economy is centrally planned by the state. In a fascist state, the economy is essentially corporatist, in which state and business are practically one in the same. So to say Islamo-fascism, is wrong. Do you get it now? |
quite right to narrow your definitions to fit your ideology.:rolleyes: |
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| DJ Damerchi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
in stupidest thing i ever heard here since, well...read my sig.
let me ask you something, are the Taliban fascist? is Al Queera a fascist organization? |
simply put, no. I am not supporting these backwards regimes by any means, your use of the term is just incorrect, and its clear that the abuse of the word has an affect on educated republicans like yourself. Since you persist to call all "evil doers" fascist, keep on trucking Q5, for you are epic.
EDIT: read the "Doctrine of Fascism"
p. 14 : The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or SPIRITUAL values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.
I agree with you that elements such as having an autocratic dictator are similar to fascism, but the large presence of religion and lack of a bridge between corporations and the single party state to run the country do not qualify your example as fascism. It is a specific term that is being abused, and in doing so, is changing the very definition of what it is to that of "evil autocrat".
Some other points:
A lack of Social Darwinism/Eugenics-abortion is banned and is punishable in your example.
Lack of a "civic religion", and the presence a classic supernational religion. This is why Islamofascism is an oxymoron. And Hitler's version of "positive christianity" was a well known sham and was abandoned in 1940.
Why is it so hard to call it what it is, a fundamental authoritarian theocracy...that usually leans to the left economically(even though they fought the communists when occupied). |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
quite right to narrow your definitions to fit your ideology.:rolleyes: |
Riiight...:rolleyes: You out of anyone here, fit the very definition of a fascist.
1. You are a radical nationalist.
2. You support a tyrannical national security state.
Please, explain how Iran and the Taliban, are fascists...:rolleyes: |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
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Hitler, Eugenics, Social Darwinism, thats great and all but you seem blind to what actually happens in countries and entities like Iran, the Taliban, Al Queera, Saddam, the Norks, ect. in an effort to make them seem more palatable intellectually. meanwhile people are suffering immensely. for what? for whom? certainly not for furthering a certain race over another or one economic system over another but, in the case of Iran, furthering a doomsday cult over proven social state.
here is a pretty smart liberal writing in March before the election fiasco
| quote: | Principled, consistent left-wingers do not base their politics on the unprincipled, inconsistent geo-political manoeuvres of western powers. We stand with the oppressed against their oppressors, regardless of what the west (or anyone else) demands or threatens.
US sabre-rattling against Iran is worrying. A military attack must be resisted. However, opposition to Washington's war-mongering and neo-imperial designs is no reason for socialists, greens and other progressives to go soft on Tehran's despotism.
Iran is an Islamo-fascist state - a clerical form of fascism based on a confluence of Islamic fundamentalism and police state methods. It differs, of course, from traditional European-style fascism, being rooted in religious dogma and autocracy. This makes it no less barbaric. Iran under the ayatollahs has a history of repression as bloody as Franco's clerical fascist regime in Spain. Sadly, it merits far less outrage by the left.
Tehran's tyrannical religious state embodies many (though not all) the characteristics of classical fascism: a substantially corporatist political and economic system maintained by a highly centralised repressive state apparatus. This repression includes bans on non-Islamist political parties and free trade unions, and a regime of unfair trials, detention without charge, torture, executions, media censorship, gender apartheid, violent suppression of peaceful protests and strikes, and the persecution of left-wingers, trade unionists, students, feminists, journalists, gay people and religious and ethnic minorities.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...iran.middleeast
http://www.marxist.com/iran/regime-...ed-students.htm
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...roic_women.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ran.humanrights
Even lawyers and human rights defenders - are imprisoned and tortured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_Baghi
The government of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is also pursuing a racist, neo-colonial policy against Iran's minority nationalities, such as the Arabs (who are abused even more harshly than the Israelis abuse the Palestinians), Kurds and Baluchs.
http://www.petertatchell.net/intern...raciststate.htm
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE13/056/2006
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...0882008eng.html
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...31042007en.html
It used to be axiomatic that left and progressive movements fought fascism, wherever it is found and whatever its form. We do not appease or collude. Well, not until recently. Nowadays, there is a whole section of the left that has abandoned the freedom struggle in Iran. It goes to extraordinary lengths to ignore, downplay or apologise for the excesses of the tyrants in Tehran.
The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament invited the Iranian ambassador as a guest speaker to its 2005 annual conference. It preferred to host the representative of an Islamo-fascist regime, rather than the leaders of Iran's left-wing opposition and anti-nuclear peace movement. Indeed, CND members who objected to the feting of the ambassador of a dictatorship were forcibly ejected from the conference.
A similar fate befell Iranian refugees who joined the Stop the War Coalition marches. When they backed the call "Don't Attack Iran" they were welcomed, but as soon as they also condemned Tehran's depotism they were denounced by some of the left and shoved out the of the demonstration by thuggish StWC stewards.
We are told by these muscular leftists that Iran is a democracy and that President Ahmadinejad is elected. Nonsense. But even if this were true, so what? Tony Blair was elected but that did not make the Iraq war right. Israel is a democracy but this is no justification for its indiscriminate bombing of Gaza and its occupation of Palestine.
The truth is that Iran is no democracy. Liberal, secular, green, socialist and national minority political parties are outlawed. All candidates for election are vetted by a clerical council and those who dissent from the mullah's orthodoxy are barred from standing for public office. Moreover, the conservative state-controlled media favours establishment candidates and denies, or restricts, coverage of genuine reformists and progressive ideas. Iran is not a democracy.
Human rights abuses in Iran are often dismissed by sections of the anti-imperialist left as "exaggerated" or "neo con fiction," despite incontrovertible evidence from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and from Iran's underground left-wing, student and trade union movements. This shocking denialism is wholly divorced from reality and is a sordid betrayal of the Iranian people's struggle for liberty and justice.
Some left-wingers argue that since the US is the main upholder of the unjust imperialist economic system we must therefore support those who oppose the US. Because Tehran is against the US, we should support, or at least not undermine, the Iranian regime.
This is a total perversion of anti-imperialism and internationalism. By this logic, the British left should have supported the Nazis during the Second World War, because Hitler was against British imperialism and his victory would have hastened the demise of empire.
The left groups and activists who hold the view that the enemy of my enemy is my friend are the mirror image of the neo cons. Their stance on Iran is determined by an international political agenda and power play, not by the interests and rights of the Iranian people. They have allowed opposition to US imperialism to trump social justice and human rights in Iran.
For nearly 40 years I have campaigned in solidarity with the Iranian people, supporting their struggle against dictatorship - first against the western-backed Shah and then, since 1979, against the ayatollahs.
The Shah was bad enough, but the Islamists who overthrew him are far worse. They have out-butchered the Shah many times over; executing or assassinating an estimated 100,000 Iranians in the last 30 years. Many of those murdered - usually after gruesome torture - were left-wingers, trade unionists and other progressive Iranians.
The traditional socialist maxim used to be: fight the tyrants and support their victims, solidarity with oppressed people everywhere. This was the response of the entire left to the Shah's brutal misrule. It stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the Iranian freedom struggle.
But in 1979, defying all its historic values and ideals, large chunks of the Iranian and international left backed the Islamist revolution of Ayatollah Khomeini. Their reasoning was that by supporting an anti-US movement this would help weaken US global hegemony. Many of us warned at the time that this opportunistic alliance with fundamentalist Islam would spell disaster for the Iranian left and progressive movements.
Sure enough, beginning a couple of years after the Islamists seized power, tens of thousands of leftists, workers, secularists, students and women's rights campaigners were arrested, tortured and executed.
Despite this bloody history of tyranny, some left-wingers and anti-imperialists still shy away from campaigning against the Tehran regime.
The police-state oppression in Iran is some of the worst in the world. According to Human Rights Watch, in March 2008 an Iranian parliament member, Hossein Ali Shahryari, confirmed that 700 people were awaiting execution in Sistan and Baluchistan province, which is only one of Iran's 30 provinces.
http://hrw.org/wr2k8/pdfs/iran.pdf
Many of those on death row are Baluch political prisoners; sentenced to death for resisting Tehran's ethnic persecution. This staggering number of death sentences is evidence of the intense, violent repression that is taking place under the leadership of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
The regime's terror is wide-ranging. Student leader Meisam Lofti was executed in 2007 on false charges of being a gang member.
http://kamangir.net/2007/07/24/stud...as-gang-member/
Members of minority faiths, like the Baha'is and, sometimes, Sunni Muslims, suffer severe harassment.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...,950013,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ran-humanrights
The regime's crackdown includes the enforcement of harsh morality laws. In 2004, in the city of Neka, a 16 year old girl, Atefah Rajabi Sahaaleh, who had been raped and sexually abused by men for many years, was convicted of "crimes against chastity." She was hanged by the method of slow, painful strangulation, hoisted by a crane in a public square.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5217424.stm
This strangulation technique, sanctioned by the Iranian President, is deliberately designed to prolong the suffering of the victim. The hanged person is left dangling and writhing for several minutes before they eventually asphyxiate and die. Truly barbaric. You can see for yourself Iranian justice in action. Watch here:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a0_1185106657
On 5 December 2007, Makvan Mouloodzadeh, a 21-year-old Iranian man, was hanged in Kermanshah Central Prison, after an unfair trial. A member of Iran's persecuted Kurdish minority, he was executed on charges of raping other boys when he was 13. In other words, he committed these alleged acts when he was a child. According to Iranian law, a boy under 15 is a minor and cannot be executed.
At Makvan's mockery of a trial, which was condemned by Human Rights Watch, the alleged rape victims retracted their previous statements, saying they had made their allegations under duress. Makvan pleaded not guilty, telling the court that his confession was made during torture.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/...e-juvenile-case
He was hanged anyway, without a shred of credible evidence that he had even had sex with the boys, let alone raped them. The lies, defamation and homophobia of the debauched Iranian legal system was exposed when hundreds of villagers attended Makvan's funeral. People don't mourn rapists.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dlZzexeNSLg
Labour activists are also victimised. Mansour Osanloo, leader of Tehran's bus workers syndicate, remains in jail - together with other trade unionists. He was sentenced to five years jail in July 2007 for his peaceful, lawful defence of worker's rights.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ransunionheroes
Oppressing his own people is not enough for Ahmadinejad. His regime also exports terror abroad. It supports the Hezbollah fundamentalists in Lebanon, who, like Israel,
indiscriminately attack civilian areas.
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2007/...s-under-assault
In addition, many of the death squads in Iraq are trained, armed and funded by
Tehran.
http://www.channel4.com/news/dispat...or/death_squads
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul...4-8-2007_pg4_21
These include ex-Badr Brigade members who, during the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, lived and trained across the border in south-east Iran. Nowadays, they assassinate political, sexual and religious dissidents; usually gunning them down in their house, workplace or street. No trial. No evidence. Summary execution, aided by Ahmadinejad's government.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...war-467784.html
The case for regime change in Iran is overwhelming, but it must come from within - by and for the Iranian people themselves - not as a result of US neo-imperial diktat.
Many Iranians hope for a non-violent Czech-style 'people power' democratic revolution, involving mass strikes and street protests by socialists, liberals, secularists, democrats, women, students, trade unionists, religious dissenters and minority nationalities. Others believe that the nascent insurrections by Arabs, Baluchs, Azeris and Kurds will burgeon into full-scale revolutionary war that will encircle and topple the Tehran regime.
To those who accuse me of aiding the US propaganda war against Tehran and helping pave the way for a military strike, I say: not true. Support for democratic and left forces inside Iran can help undermine the case for war. Progress towards securing a democratic, progressive Iranian government is one of the best ways to thwart a possible military strike by Washington. Such a government would pose no threat to anyone. This would make it much harder for the neo cons to persuade the American public and military to go to war. They would no longer have the excuse that Iran is a terroristic, fundamentalist, anti-Semitic dictatorship that is striving to develop nuclear weapons and which poses a threat to international peace and security.
If Iran ceased to be a fanatical religious tyranny, the case for war would be seriously weakened. The pro-war Republicans and Democrats in the US would lose the battle for hearts and minds. Most public opinion would desert them. Anti-war US politicians and activists would be empowered and enhanced.
We must do everything we can to stop a US military attack on Iran - not because we want to save the Islamo-fascist regime but because such an attack would strengthen the position of the hardliners in Tehran; allowing President Ahmadinejad to play the nationalist card and portray himself as a heroic war leader. It would also give him an excuse to further crack-down on dissent, using the pretext of safeguarding national security and defending the country against US imperialism. This would set back the Iranian struggle for democracy and human rights.
Moreover, a US attack on Muslim Iran would increase the sense of grievance felt by Muslims worldwide; radicalising Muslim youth, fanning the flames of fundamentalism, increasing support for Islamist parties and resulting in thousands of new recruits to the ranks of Jihadis and suicide bombers.
Tragically, the leadership of the UK and US anti-war movements have been sleep-walking into making the same mistakes over Iran as they made over Iraq. They are silent about the regime's despotism and oppression. Mirroring the neo con indifference to human rights abuses in Iran, they refuse to show solidarity with the Iranian peoples' struggle for secularism, democracy, social justice, human rights and for the self-determination of national minorities. There is nothing remotely left-wing about this is sad and cruel betrayal. Put bluntly: it is collusion with tyranny.
www.petertatchell.net[/i]
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