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Have we lost the plot?
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View this Thread in Original format
| johno27 |
So I've been doing some thinking/soul-searching and I'm starting to ask myself some questions based on the following:
I've been in the electronica scene for about 13/14 years (fan/djing/producing) and I've been to pretty much every small, medium and massive event we've ever had here in SA (The biggest so far being the Camel Experience and Gate Crasher events which pulled in about 30,000 people).
Over the last few years there have obviously been far fewer of these big events, it's a global phenomena but particular bad here in SA due to scales of economy, interest in the genres (being so niche) etc.
Every event I've been to recently (lets say in the last 3-5) years have suffered from the same problem (specifically on the main floors),
The most recent of these being Armin's Imagine tour which was here about 2 months ago. All in all it was a great event, well organized, nice venue, fantastic visuals and lighting but the sound.. IS ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING.
At first I was blaming poor rig setup and bad sound engineering (this may still be true) but I've recently started to debate the quality of trance production in general.
Don't get me wrong, there are some production elements these days which are far more intricate, well crafted and full of texture than say the trance productions circa 98-2002 (not wanting to be one of those nostalgic.. "it was all better in the old days" sort of ppl) ;)
That said however I really think that with all our new toys, technology and processing power the only thing we've really achieved is creating mixes with FAR too much low end and kick drums that are just TOO big. The new wave of trance productions sound great on a small hi-fi/car.. but it seems that when they are played on a big rig (the 20kw+ arena type) it falls to pieces and the whoomping bass destroys all the mid's and you loose the fx/melodies/atmosphere.
I'm not sure if in the so called "golden days" there was budget to ensure that 12" was mixed/mastered in such a way as to be designed for clubs and big rigs, and compilation/cd's etc would get a bass-hyped version whereas now it's just one single mix/master which is more suited towards the average listening environment.
This obviously also comes back to the whole loudness war thing too as I find tracks from 98-03 (roughly) can be played a lot louder with more punch than the newer stuff.. the bass starts to distort long before the same overall level is reached.
Are other people noticing this (perhaps at large events) too?
Is it just shoddy engineering at events, or are we spending all our time and effort to get our tracks to sound and be mixed/mastered as well as the "pros" which actually aren't very well done at all, as the second you listen to them on big rigs or high fidelity monitoring just sound like this huge pile of whoomping booming noise.
Any thoughts would be welcome :) |
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| echosystm |
| ...and a hardware vs. software debate begins. if we're lucky, we might even get to mac vs. pc and cd vs. vinyl. |
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| Cryogen |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
cd vs. vinyl. |
If vinyl wins can we have a Technics vs Vestax debate ? |
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| johno27 |
lol.. hopefully not, Vinyl sounded ok.. personally I prefer CD's.. I use mac and pc and I like them both, they're different and each have their own pros/cons. I'm more interested to hear what peoples experience has been in terms of listening to productions on BIG systems especially the comparison between recent vs. classic stuff.
If it can be narrowed down to poor sound-engineering at events or is it really a case of the music being too bass heavy. I personally think it's the later. My family is involved with classical and film music and they run several post production facilities as well doing orchestration etc. Obviously as anyone who knows ppl in that space (especially classical) aren't particularly fond of the "doof doof" genre, but consistently they'll prefer the older tracks (from my experience)..
When i Listen to stuff like the following and compare it to the newer stuff:
Lostep - Burma (Sasha Involver Mix)
Sasha - Xpander
Cosmic Gate - Exploration of Space
Chicane (Saltwater etc)
Solar Stone - Seven Cities
Northern Exposure Albumn
Perasma - Swing to Harmony - Deserves an Effort Mix
It might not all be as dense or full of fx/atmospherics and nifty tricks.. but its all tight, punchy and well balanced. |
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| Tarpex |
EDM today is following a rule, get it as loud and banging as possible, screw the dynamics (sort to speak), thing is, if the soundsystem on these massive events is set right, with top PA speakers, it can be great to listen to.
I went to Nature One festival last year, and I was amazed at the sound. They also set up some kind of canvas on a big sphere that connected the speaker towers, which helped containing the high section on the actual floor, so it sounded more defined than it usually does on massive floors.
A lot of the way a massive party sounds like depends on the actual venue it's hosted in, if the place is acoustically crap, there's no way the sound will be stellar.
You also have to know that on many events like these, they're using post-compression and limiting before they release the signal to the amp stations, and with some tracks going into compression&limiting extremes on their own, it may sound, well, not so good on these huge sound installations.
Pile of whooping booming noise is exaggerating, production quality has gone up the ladder immensely, and is really enjoyable to listen on really good PA's in well designed clubs. On mass events held in sport stadiums etc, it's usually so-so with sound quality b/c of the reasons mentioned above. |
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| Kismet7 |
We've had this one a few times already...
We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test.
We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops.
We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats.
We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound.
But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do.
At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito |
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| johno27 |
Tarpex, 100% agreed. The venue/rig and it's setup is critical to getting a good sound. But i'm taking this even further.. take an album from 99 (like ibiza trance anthems 99) and something new like asot 2009 and listen to them objectively on a decent set of monitors like kh0300, focals..
Too me it becomes immediately clear:
ASOT 2009 has too too much low-end, kicks are way too big on most tracks, highs tend to be very fizzy, sibilance on vocals. Track FX are good, atmospheres are lovely, overall arrangement is modern and full of neat little stutter/glitch edits and tricks, good filtering, plenty of layers and variety of sounds.
Ibiza Trance Anthems 99 Tracks are considerably more sparse, far less fx (sometimes to the detriment). For the most part kicks are more classic processed 909/808 style and could do with a bit more beef.. but not NEARLY as much as is common today. Percussion layers could be more interesting. Melodies are usually a bit more interesting and usually have some sort of catchy hook. Bass lines are tight punchy and aren't over the top.
So after I do a test like this.. I find that the 99 stuff is too little, and the new stuff is over-kill.. like there should be a happy medium. |
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| mfitterer1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
We've had this one a few times already...
We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test.
We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops.
We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats.
We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound.
But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do.
At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito |
You're such a depressed moron. You can't get your to sound tight and hot so you hate on the product instead of the person working it (you). There are many tracks you wouldn't think were that were made on just software synths and vice versa with hardware. It's the person working the sounds not the sounds themselves. |
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| adi_hanson |
not wanting to be one of those nostalgic.. "it was all better in the old days" sort of ppl)
^
There you said it yourself
So you cant take things from when it was good because you might be too nostalgic.So you better fill it with then eh? |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
We've had this one a few times already...
We've traded sound quality for more creativity and accessibility through software. The rise in creativity and accessibilty has offset the drop in sound quality to just above a level that people have not turned away from the music, rather the EDM culture continues to grow, even with the poor fidelity. I mean there are people who choose 128kbps MP3 over 320 MP3 in a blind test.
We have the internet, for various reasons opened the flood gate for poorly engineered music to make its way into ipods and online music shops.
We have labels that should not be labels signing music that should not be signed or released. There is not the same amount of quality control in the days of non internet distributed digital formats.
We have Producers (myself included at the moment) that are using more software than hardware, which results in lower sound quality and emotional content in the music, no matter how well the music is written, and how well it is mixed. Software still does not have the quality and emotional content, and timelessness that analogue circuitry brings to sound.
But i'm optimistic about the future, things will definately get better over time sound wise in electronic music. As people continue to upgrade their studios with hardware, creating a bigger group of producers who use proper equipment to create their music, leaving software only producers behind sound wise. Also I think within the next 5-10 years software will improve drastically, as coding improves and processors increase in speed. For a VST Sylenth sounds good, I think its definately a step in the right direction towards better emulations of analogue sounds, even though there is still a lot of room to grow to catch up with what Analogue Synths offer sound wise. And of course there is room for innovation in software to do unique things that analogue has'nt been able to do.
At the end of the day "useless bitching and moaning using nostalgia as a platform." threads dont get anyone anywhere. But there you go. /finito |
FAIL. |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by johno27
Tarpex, 100% agreed. The venue/rig and it's setup is critical to getting a good sound. But i'm taking this even further.. take an album from 99 (like ibiza trance anthems 99) and something new like asot 2009 and listen to them objectively on a decent set of monitors like kh0300, focals..
Too me it becomes immediately clear:
ASOT 2009 has too too much low-end, kicks are way too big on most tracks, highs tend to be very fizzy, sibilance on vocals. Track FX are good, atmospheres are lovely, overall arrangement is modern and full of neat little stutter/glitch edits and tricks, good filtering, plenty of layers and variety of sounds.
Ibiza Trance Anthems 99 Tracks are considerably more sparse, far less fx (sometimes to the detriment). For the most part kicks are more classic processed 909/808 style and could do with a bit more beef.. but not NEARLY as much as is common today. Percussion layers could be more interesting. Melodies are usually a bit more interesting and usually have some sort of catchy hook. Bass lines are tight punchy and aren't over the top.
So after I do a test like this.. I find that the 99 stuff is too little, and the new stuff is over-kill.. like there should be a happy medium. |
From what i know alot of clubs and venues put an overall EQ or multi-band compressor that dips in the in the lower mids & mids generally from 800hz-3khz to emphasize the bass content. and it doesnt help that a lot PAs also have a boost at about 80hz-100hz which ends up boosting up tthe rest of the bass frequncies usually from 20hz-200hz as well. correct me if im wrong though.
dance music doesnt really have as much bass as one would think. however alot of parties and massives ive been too have the low end drown out the mids because of what i stated above. normally it is not the music's fault and usually is the sound engineering.
EDIT: to add on to what I was saying, yes older music had less bass fruequencies so that when the tactics stated above were used it would help the music more suit a club, however since people use the same tactics on music with more bass it makes sense why newer music might not sound as great and too bassy when in reality its the sound engineering. |
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| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by mfitterer1
You're such a depressed moron. You can't get your to sound tight and hot so you hate on the product instead of the person working it (you). There are many tracks you wouldn't think were that were made on just software synths and vice versa with hardware. It's the person working the sounds not the sounds themselves. |
Are you retarded? Where did you get depressed from what I said? me, what are you on about? You cant even make an understandable sentence, let alone sense someones emotional state from a post that is basically objective observation. While i'm at it, ill throw in that 90% of your posts i've read is full of moron, I was holding it back till now, as I was saying to myself this mfitterers is definately challenged, and telling him he is a moron would not make a difference. :stongue:
That said, I get my to sound decent in comparison to a lot of software based productions i've heard. But en route to being a Professional Producer/Engineer/Mixer someday, of course there is room for improvement as I improve my equipment over the next few years, and increase analogue hardware use for tracking and mixing of important sounds. |
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